Huns in trouble after song mocking the famine

[Evil Genius]

Which must mean either that she no longer minds the sectarian atmosphere she formerly deplored, or that that atmopsphere has now been completely transformed. (It's the latter, by the way).

If it is the latter, as you claim, can you give us examples of the sectarian atmosphere there was before it was completely transformed?

By the occasional singing of The Sash and other Orange songs etc, by a section of the support (usually on the Kop). No reasonable NI fan would deny that we had a problem with this sort of thing for a period - otherwise, why would so many be working so hard to eradicate it with e.g. "Football For All".

By the same token, no reasonable observer would deny that the atmosphere has been remarkably transformed, since the fans (and IFA) reclaimed the game.

Or did you miss my earlier quotation by Kenny Archer of the Irish News? (Post #86)

[Main Street]

The atmosphere at NI internationals, both Home and away, has been transformed completely in the 15 years between your watching a home game on TV in 1993 and the highlights on TV of an away game in 2008. This has been recognised far and wide by respected and neutral organisations such as the NI Community Relations Council, the Sports Council, the City of Brussels, UEFA and SARI (to name a few from off the top of my head).

I can't figure that, what exactly were the acknowledged problems with NI support that had to be transformed completely?
All I have read here from the OWC was about the odd loud bigot and a few people loudly booing Neil Lennon, the odd song etc.
Can it have been that much work to change that  
Maybe Kenny Archer was talking though his hole when he wrote about a label that once had a date?

ever-increasing cross-community participation in a way which your beloved Gaelic sports cannot even dream of emulating.

It's peculiar that you use the term "your beloved Gaelic Sports" like you are some alien who somehow is also a member of the Gaaboard.

Attending Gaelic Games for decades I haven't noticed that much change with the support. More colour, Hill 16, more traveling away support et.c. but essentially its still a family outing. I doubt that anyone anytime would have had to say that the atmosphere has to be changed apart from the odd ref getting a few whacks.

Just because the NI game atmosphere had to be transformed completely, ie. from head to toe, just so it looks and sounds kind of normal I think you would be well advised before slinging arrows about Gaelic Games.  

I think the GAA has been even a bit more ready than the IFA when it comes to constitutional changes  

[nifan]

MS, it was not the odd song, there was a section of support that sang such songs frequently and with gusto. It was certainly a problem, and their is still remnants in the sections that continue to do theiur "no surrender" bit during GSTQ.

[full back]

By the occasional singing of The Sash and other Orange songs etc, by a section of the support

So, at it's very worst, this is the worst thing that ever happened at NI games?
Priceless eg, f**king priceless

[BallyhaiseMan]

The Northern Ireland team is just that - Northern Irish. As such, it has one emblem which reflect the British element of NI (the National Anthem), a number of emblems which reflect the Irish aspect of NI (e.g. colours, badge, name) and an other set of emblems which are neither, but which simply reflect where we come from. Of this last category, the most dear to the fans is our (unofficial) anthem "We're not Brazil, we're Northern Ireland (though it's all the same to me)" Moreover, with the success of fan-led campaigns such as The Sea of Green ( http://www.seaofgreen.org.uk/ ), or Football For All, this trend towards emphasising our common "Norn Iron" identity is developing all the time, leading to genuine, ever-increasing cross-community participation in a way which your beloved Gaelic sports cannot even dream of emulating.
[/quote]

Now i have little interest in the boards petty northern ireland squabbles and pay little attention other than scroll down through the threads

But i cannot let this shit lie

"Cross Community participation to which Our Beloved Gaelic Sports cannot even dream about emulating"

No offence but what the f**k would you know about GAA outreach programmes throughout the island of Ireland?

GAA have had numerous outreach programmes aimed towards increased participation from our immigrant communities,

We have players from African Origin,Eastern European,Brazilian throughout the country playing football and hurling,mostly at underage level but also some at Adult level...

One of my own Club's star players is of an Iraqi background

And in our newly found integration unfortunately we have a few problems with racist bigots like the ones who gave a young player racist abuse at an underage game in Carlow.

You normaly take unwarranted abuse on here for no reason Evil Genius,But you should refrain from making outlandish remarks like the one you just made.

[Donagh]

"Where there are British cultural symbols involved in public life in the north, equivalent Irish cultural and political symbols should be given equal prominence. If agreement or consensus cannot be found on this then a reasonable alternative is to suspend the flying of flags until such agreement can be found. In other words and equality scenario or a neutrality scenario."

Sounds like a 'reasonable alternative' to me

2. I agree with the removal of Tyrone flags everywhere.

Ha Ha, very good!  

I was serious

[Evil Genius]

The atmosphere at NI internationals, both Home and away, has been transformed completely in the 15 years between your watching a home game on TV in 1993 and the highlights on TV of an away game in 2008. This has been recognised far and wide by respected and neutral organisations such as the NI Community Relations Council, the Sports Council, the City of Brussels, UEFA and SARI (to name a few from off the top of my head).

I can't figure that, what exactly were the acknowledged problems with NI support that had to be transformed completely?
All I have read here from the OWC was about the odd loud bigot and a few people loudly booing Neil Lennon, the odd song etc.
Can it have been that much work to change that  

See posts #91 and #92, for a start! I, for one, amongst OWC posters here have never sought to deny the existence, or downplay the extent, of the problem we faced with a section of our support. (Nor, for that matter, do I recall other OWC posters on here doing so). Perhaps you can find a post by me which contradicts this?
Quite simply, we had a problem, severe at times, which ought never to have been allowed to exist and which ought to have been addressed much sooner than it was. But that was in another Century (literally) and history cannot be changed any more than it should be denied.
All we can do is make sure the present and future does not see any reoccurrence, which I'm pleased to say with confidence, is/won't be the case. But as we work to keep it that way, I'd hope that we could move from constantly having to apologise for the Bad Old Days, as though they still retained some currency, even if it seems to fulfil some sort of need within you to go on doing so...

Maybe Kenny Archer was talking though his hole when he wrote about a label that once had a date?

No, Kenny Archer of the Irish News (neither hardly a natural friend of the NI team, btw) was writing in the immediate aftermath of the NI vs England match, which he attended in his capacity as a journalist. As such, he was responding to Nationalists who before the game had predicted it would become some sort of "Britfest", or love-in between Ulster Loyalists and their Ingurland BNP allies etc. Instead, he reported the evidence of his own eyes and ears, namely, that there was nothing in the behaviour of the fans to which any reasonable observer could take exception. Quite the contrary, in fact, since he was very complimentary about the atmosphere, culminating in the brief quotation of his which I used.

It's peculiar that you use the term "your beloved Gaelic Sports" like you are some alien who somehow is also a member of the Gaaboard.

OK, remove the "your beloved" part, if you like. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of a GAA fan and self-confessed soccer ignoramus who sought to denigrate (my beloved) sport for being "exclusive", when his own sport has signally failed to achieve any degree of "inclusivity" or cross-community support and participation in the six counties at any stage during over 125 years of its existence.

Attending Gaelic Games for decades I haven't noticed that much change with the support. More colour, Hill 16, more traveling away support et.c. but essentially its still a family outing. I doubt that anyone anytime would have had to say that the atmosphere has to be changed apart from the odd ref getting a few whacks.

I've no doubt you're correct. And chief amongst the aspects of the support which won't have changed is that it is still almost exclusively drawn from one section of the community in the six counties, unliike e.g. the comparable footballing codes, Association and Rugby.
Which, as I've pointed out numerous times before, must be a matter for the GAA to address (or not, as the case has been). In the meantime, however, I don't see why I should have to take lessons in "inclusivity" etc from the likes of Baile anTuaigh etc.

Just because the NI game atmosphere had to be transformed completely, ie. from head to toe, just so it looks and sounds kind of normal I think you would be well advised before slinging arrows about Gaelic Games.  

I wasn't "slinging arrows", as you put it, merely pointing out to a GAA fan that Association Football in NI has achieved, and continues to achieve, a record of cross-community support and participation which is not remotely replicated in Gaelic Football. As such, I am as proud of our current success as I was embarrassed by our former failings. I leave it to GAA fans to be proud/indifferent/embarrassed by the record of their own sport in that regard.

I think the GAA has been even a bit more ready than the IFA when it comes to constitutional changes  

And what aspects of the IFA's Constitution (Rulebook) do you consider currently need reforming, then?

Perhaps the GAA has done more work on reform, since it has had the greater need to do so? Either way, in terms of "inclusiveness" and cross-community participation etc, which was the aspect of our two sports which I was debating with BaT, I am more concerned with what is actually happening on the ground, where our record is a good one, than in some dusty old Rulebook.
And as such, I'm told the Constitution of the old USSR was an absolute model in proclaiming Justice, Fairness and equality etc for all its citizens - for all the good that did anybody!  

[Evil Genius]

By the occasional singing of The Sash and other Orange songs etc, by a section of the support

So, at it's very worst, this is the worst thing that ever happened at NI games?
Priceless eg, f**king priceless

Yes, it was sung "on occasion". Or do you imagine that people turned up and sung it for 90 minutes solid?  And it was only ever a section of the support, never the unanimity.

And no, I didn't claim it was the "worst" that ever went on. In response to a request to furnish some examples of the unwelcome (and unwelcoming) atmosphere which sometimes prevailed at NI games over a period, I merely chose the best-known and most frequent occurrance i.e. the singing of the Sash.

Certainly, as NIfan and others have averred, there were other, even more disgraceful episodes which occurred from time to time, such as "The Billy Boys", or the abusing of individual players etc.

So there, I've said it. I hope you got the thrill you sought in "trapping" me in this way, as you retreat back to gloat in the comfort of your little 20th (19th?) Century mentality

Meanwhile, in the 21st Century...

[updown9194]

In the 21st century...

"we've got a provo on our team."

I find the attitude that "fans are as bad as each other" just plain ridiculous. Yes, Celtic fans are sometimes bad, but no two crimes are the same, even if they  are done in retaliation to each other. In Celtic you're also talking about a club that has considerably cleaned up its act anyway, and I have certainly never heard this "6 Million jews" song being sang by a majority of people at Parkhead or any away ground.

But that is what comes with supporting a team that wouldn't hire Catholics or people related to them for a ridiculous number of years, and even when they began to hire Catholics only did so in a spirit of one-up-man-ship. Who removed Eggs Benedict from their menu after the latest Pope was elected. Who priced corporate suites at £1690. Whose star goalkeeper wore a black armband after the death of Billy Wright. Whose starting midfielder signed Autographs "f**k the Pope."

Can you balance that with any actions by Celtic fans/players/board? I'm holding back as well, mind.

[Evil Genius]

In the 21st century...

"we've got a provo on our team."

I find the attitude that "fans are as bad as each other" just plain ridiculous. Yes, Celtic fans are sometimes bad, but no two crimes are the same, even if they  are done in retaliation to each other. In Celtic you're also talking about a club that has considerably cleaned up its act anyway, and I have certainly never heard this "6 Million jews" song being sang by a majority of people at Parkhead or any away ground.

But that is what comes with supporting a team that wouldn't hire Catholics or people related to them for a ridiculous number of years, and even when they began to hire Catholics only did so in a spirit of one-up-man-ship. Who removed Eggs Benedict from their menu after the latest Pope was elected. Who priced corporate suites at £1690. Whose star goalkeeper wore a black armband after the death of Billy Wright. Whose starting midfielder signed Autographs "f**k the Pope."

Can you balance that with any actions by Celtic fans/players/board? I'm holding back as well, mind.

If that post is addressed to me (viz "Meanwhile back in the 21st Century"), it may be the case that Celtic FC has been more diligent in removing sectarian trappings etc from their operation than Rangers FC. I personally wouldn't kinow, since I am not intimately familiar with the workings of either club, never mind a supporter.

All I will say, however, is that I have never noticed any great difference in the extent of the antipathy, intolerance and bigotry displayed to each other by the respective sections of of each club's support, who appear to loathe each other as much as ever.

But if you or anyone else want to reassure yourself that "Ussuns" isn't as bad as "Themmuns", then go ahead, knock yourself out. I hope I may be forgiven in excluding myself from this particular exercise.

Up the Jags!

[Evil Genius]

The Northern Ireland team is just that - Northern Irish. As such, it has one emblem which reflect the British element of NI (the National Anthem), a number of emblems which reflect the Irish aspect of NI (e.g. colours, badge, name) and an other set of emblems which are neither, but which simply reflect where we come from. Of this last category, the most dear to the fans is our (unofficial) anthem "We're not Brazil, we're Northern Ireland (though it's all the same to me)" Moreover, with the success of fan-led campaigns such as The Sea of Green ( http://www.seaofgreen.org.uk/ ), or Football For All, this trend towards emphasising our common "Norn Iron" identity is developing all the time, leading to genuine, ever-increasing cross-community participation in a way which your beloved Gaelic sports cannot even dream of emulating.

Now i have little interest in the boards petty northern ireland squabbles and pay little attention other than scroll down through the threads

But i cannot let this shit lie

"Cross Community participation to which Our Beloved Gaelic Sports cannot even dream about emulating"

No offence but what the f**k would you know about GAA outreach programmes throughout the island of Ireland?

GAA have had numerous outreach programmes aimed towards increased participation from our immigrant communities,

We have players from African Origin,Eastern European,Brazilian throughout the country playing football and hurling,mostly at underage level but also some at Adult level...

One of my own Club's star players is of an Iraqi background

And in our newly found integration unfortunately we have a few problems with racist bigots like the ones who gave a young player racist abuse at an underage game in Carlow.

You normaly take unwarranted abuse on here for no reason Evil Genius,But you should refrain from making outlandish remarks like the one you just made.

[/quote]

I cannot put my reply any better (or more succinctly!) than this comment by another poster, on another forum, when he noted:

"There is no Gaa for All, no equivalent of Michael Boyd* – unless of course you are an economic migrant, a section of the community they are falling over themselves to attract. So it's not immigrants per se they don't like, just certain types of immigrants, the one's who've been here the longest"

* - Head of the IFA's Award-winning "Football For All" Programme

[Evil Genius]

"Where there are British cultural symbols involved in public life in the north, equivalent Irish cultural and political symbols should be given equal prominence. If agreement or consensus cannot be found on this then a reasonable alternative is to suspend the flying of flags until such agreement can be found. In other words and equality scenario or a neutrality scenario."

Sounds like a 'reasonable alternative' to me

Fine. I take it from that reply that you feel it was correct for the Strabane woman to be required to remove the Tyrone flag from her car whilst parked in her Employer's carpark. Why couldn't you have simply said so in the first place? 

2. I agree with the removal of Tyrone flags everywhere.

Ha Ha, very good! 

I was serious

Is it the (Loyalist) Red Hand of Ulster you object to, by any chance? 

[updown9194]

In the 21st century...

"we've got a provo on our team."

I find the attitude that "fans are as bad as each other" just plain ridiculous. Yes, Celtic fans are sometimes bad, but no two crimes are the same, even if they  are done in retaliation to each other. In Celtic you're also talking about a club that has considerably cleaned up its act anyway, and I have certainly never heard this "6 Million jews" song being sang by a majority of people at Parkhead or any away ground.

But that is what comes with supporting a team that wouldn't hire Catholics or people related to them for a ridiculous number of years, and even when they began to hire Catholics only did so in a spirit of one-up-man-ship. Who removed Eggs Benedict from their menu after the latest Pope was elected. Who priced corporate suites at £1690. Whose star goalkeeper wore a black armband after the death of Billy Wright. Whose starting midfielder signed Autographs "f**k the Pope."

Can you balance that with any actions by Celtic fans/players/board? I'm holding back as well, mind.

If that post is addressed to me (viz "Meanwhile back in the 21st Century"), it may be the case that Celtic FC has been more diligent in removing sectarian trappings etc from their operation than Rangers FC. I personally wouldn't kinow, since I am not intimately familiar with the workings of either club, never mind a supporter.

All I will say, however, is that I have never noticed any great difference in the extent of the antipathy, intolerance and bigotry displayed to each other by the respective sections of of each club's support, who appear to loathe each other as much as ever.

But if you or anyone else want to reassure yourself that "Ussuns" isn't as bad as "Themmuns", then go ahead, knock yourself out. I hope I may be forgiven in excluding myself from this particular exercise.

Up the Jags!

If you haven't noticed any difference then clearly you haven't quite looked hard enough. I don't consider hatred or intolerance towards an organisation that more or less institutionalised sectarianism to be of a religiously bigoted nature. There are plenty of Protestant Celtic fans who hate Rangers as much as, maybe even more, than Catholics did-- perhaps the most famous example being Jock Stein, Celtic's greatest ever employee and shock horror a Scottish Protestant born and bred to support Rangers.

In any case if you're not intuned with the trappings of either club then I wonder why you continue to post in threads such as these. If it is in defence of the North's soccer team all I can say to you is that your fans have f**king plenty to catch up on in terms of conduct themselves, and that no Celtic player has even been forced to quit playing for Celtic because of a death threat from his own fans in the 21st century.

[Main Street]

The atmosphere at NI internationals, both Home and away, has been transformed completely in the 15 years between your watching a home game on TV in 1993 and the highlights on TV of an away game in 2008. This has been recognised far and wide by respected and neutral organisations such as the NI Community Relations Council, the Sports Council, the City of Brussels, UEFA and SARI (to name a few from off the top of my head).

I can't figure that, what exactly were the acknowledged problems with NI support that had to be transformed completely?
All I have read here from the OWC was about the odd loud bigot and a few people loudly booing Neil Lennon, the odd song etc.
Can it have been that much work to change that  

See posts #91 and #92, for a start! I, for one, amongst OWC posters here have never sought to deny the existence, or downplay the extent, of the problem we faced with a section of our support. (Nor, for that matter, do I recall other OWC posters on here doing so). Perhaps you can find a post by me which contradicts this?
Quite simply, we had a problem, severe at times, which ought never to have been allowed to exist and which ought to have been addressed much sooner than it was. But that was in another Century (literally) and history cannot be changed any more than it should be denied.
All we can do is make sure the present and future does not see any reoccurrence, which I'm pleased to say with confidence, is/won't be the case. But as we work to keep it that way, I'd hope that we could move from constantly having to apologise for the Bad Old Days, as though they still retained some currency, even if it seems to fulfil some sort of need within you to go on doing so...

Maybe Kenny Archer was talking though his hole when he wrote about a label that once had a date?

No, Kenny Archer of the Irish News (neither hardly a natural friend of the NI team, btw) was writing in the immediate aftermath of the NI vs England match, which he attended in his capacity as a journalist. As such, he was responding to Nationalists who before the game had predicted it would become some sort of "Britfest", or love-in between Ulster Loyalists and their Ingurland BNP allies etc. Instead, he reported the evidence of his own eyes and ears, namely, that there was nothing in the behaviour of the fans to which any reasonable observer could take exception. Quite the contrary, in fact, since he was very complimentary about the atmosphere, culminating in the brief quotation of his which I used.

It's peculiar that you use the term "your beloved Gaelic Sports" like you are some alien who somehow is also a member of the Gaaboard.

OK, remove the "your beloved" part, if you like. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of a GAA fan and self-confessed soccer ignoramus who sought to denigrate (my beloved) sport for being "exclusive", when his own sport has signally failed to achieve any degree of "inclusivity" or cross-community support and participation in the six counties at any stage during over 125 years of its existence.

Attending Gaelic Games for decades I haven't noticed that much change with the support. More colour, Hill 16, more traveling away support et.c. but essentially its still a family outing. I doubt that anyone anytime would have had to say that the atmosphere has to be changed apart from the odd ref getting a few whacks.

I've no doubt you're correct. And chief amongst the aspects of the support which won't have changed is that it is still almost exclusively drawn from one section of the community in the six counties, unliike e.g. the comparable footballing codes, Association and Rugby.
Which, as I've pointed out numerous times before, must be a matter for the GAA to address (or not, as the case has been). In the meantime, however, I don't see why I should have to take lessons in "inclusivity" etc from the likes of Baile anTuaigh etc.

Just because the NI game atmosphere had to be transformed completely, ie. from head to toe, just so it looks and sounds kind of normal I think you would be well advised before slinging arrows about Gaelic Games.  

I wasn't "slinging arrows", as you put it, merely pointing out to a GAA fan that Association Football in NI has achieved, and continues to achieve, a record of cross-community support and participation which is not remotely replicated in Gaelic Football. As such, I am as proud of our current success as I was embarrassed by our former failings. I leave it to GAA fans to be proud/indifferent/embarrassed by the record of their own sport in that regard.

I think the GAA has been even a bit more ready than the IFA when it comes to constitutional changes  

And what aspects of the IFA's Constitution (Rulebook) do you consider currently need reforming, then?

Perhaps the GAA has done more work on reform, since it has had the greater need to do so? Either way, in terms of "inclusiveness" and cross-community participation etc, which was the aspect of our two sports which I was debating with BaT, I am more concerned with what is actually happening on the ground, where our record is a good one, than in some dusty old Rulebook.
And as such, I'm told the Constitution of the old USSR was an absolute model in proclaiming Justice, Fairness and equality etc for all its citizens - for all the good that did anybody!  

Maybe you were replying to a challenge that nothing has changed.
I don't know exactly where I got the impression from that every "incident" at WP was divided in intensity by a figure of around 10 by most here from the OWC  
(not everybody -  Nifan)

You outlined what has changed.
AFAIU  you claimed the achievement was in the complete transformation of the atmosphere at Northern Ireland games.
I merely point out that the GAA had no problem in that regard.
Who ever attended the GAA games, did so peacefully and did not create an atmosphere that had to be transformed totally in order to be boasted about as an achievement at a later stage.
GAA folk are naturally sporting.
Well done and all that for the effort that went into making the (almost) complete change at WP and probably against hostile elements.

Now you appear to be mentioning the achievement of inclusion.

The participation of Nationalists in soccer may well have been a credit to their determination, desire and their unprejudiced natural sporting ability. That has been the case even in the time of the Ban and for decades before the FFA. At the most senior level, who did Pat Jennings have to be thankful to in order to take his place in goal at WP long before the FFA did their work to silence the boo boys?
Out of curiousity, do you have statistics about the increased participation of catholics in soccer sports since the FFA began their work.

I do believe that the Sunday ban was only recently was voted out of the IFA constitution. Even though the vast majority of fans wanted it removed, constitutional change come slow.
That was my point.

[Evil Genius]

If you haven't noticed any difference then clearly you haven't quite looked hard enough.

I have no great desire to look more closely at what I see of "Huns" abusing "Tims" and "Tims" abusing "Huns", thank you very much.

I don't consider hatred or intolerance towards an organisation that more or less institutionalised sectarianism to be of a religiously bigoted nature.

I haver absolutely no idea what that is meant to mean.  

There are plenty of Protestant Celtic fans who hate Rangers as much as, maybe even more, than Catholics did-- perhaps the most famous example being Jock Stein, Celtic's greatest ever employee and shock horror a Scottish Protestant born and bred to support Rangers.

Your use of the word "employee" says it all. Remind me again of what position at Celtic Big Jock was offered - and rejected - after he was persuaded to step down as Manager in favour of Billy McNeill? A place on the Board, was it? I don't think so, somehow. Perhaps he wasn't sufficiently "Celtic-minded" to grace the Boardroom?  

In any case if you're not intuned with the trappings of either club then I wonder why you continue to post in threads such as these. If it is in defence of the North's soccer team all I can say to you is that your fans have f**king plenty to catch up on in terms of conduct themselves,

I don't need to be intimately informed of all the internal goings-on at either club to be able to form the opinion that one set of fans complainng about the other set is not likely to engender change in the other fans' behaviour (which was my main point whilst this thread was on-topic).
Nor did I introduce the subject of the NI team or its fans to this thread, either. Instead, I merely responded when others did so in a particularly ignorant and/or prejudiced fashion.

... no Celtic player has even been forced to quit playing for Celtic because of a death threat from his own fans in the 21st century.

Nor has any NI player been forced to quit playing for NI because of a death threat from his "own fans", either. If you are referring to Neil Lennon, it is not known who phoned in the anonymous death threat*, but you can be sure that no fan worth the name would want to see one of our finest players (and Captain) unavailable to the team he supports. In any case, Lenny himself seems to have put this particular deplorable episode in its proper context. As recently as March 2007, in a special video he recorded for the IFA's "Football For All" Awards Night (he couldn't attend, since he was on club duty), he noted the following:
"Fans like Stewart (an award winner) are unsung heroes who have been brave enough to challenge sectarianism and who have actively created a more fun, safe and family orientated atmosphere at international games. (They) have made the atmosphere at Northern Ireland football games the envy of fans across not only Europe but world football. I would personally like to thank them for their efforts."
Still, what would someone like Lennon know about such things...

* - The clue is in the word "anonymous", in case you're struggling...