Huns in trouble after song mocking the famine

[updown9194]

The support of catholics/nationalists is increasing, but really people cant be made to support the team. Nationalists may support the ROI team if they feel it represents their view of an "Ireland" team. That is certainly the view of those I know who support them, not simply thsat the NI team has anything wrong with it.

I think that's more or less right. What I think is true is that every decade or so the undercurrent of thuggery in some of your fans shows itself up, like the Neil Lennon incident, the Greysteel chants et cetera. These are big incidents but the pettier ones of intimidation, of rioting when a paddywagon vehicle comes past, are those that stop a lot of us from supporting you, certainly in person. My da always said that the sectarian problem got worse after the Republic got better, which makes sense when you think about it from both your perspective of having a rival to worry about, and ours of having a team of our own to shout about.

I also on a side note hate it when people sing that Healy song at a nightclub-- although only in certain nightclubs-- because it's often been used as a sectarian ralling cry from what I've seen, although maybe it just annoys me because I hate anyone singing songs about any team, probably more Manchester United fans. One of the funniest incidents was whenever outside the box in the odyssey one lad tried to sing "Keano" in response to some lads singing "Healy" and was told to desist by the PSNI for singing sectarian songs. You couldn't have made it up.

[saffron sam2]

Stibhan

Motioning that the "individual" who placed a death threat doesn't deserve the epithet "fan" is possibly one of the most cowardly and disgusting white-wash jobs I've ever heard.

So you are 100% certain it was a fan and not perhaps an england supporting loyalist? He probably was but how can you be sure? The point is if he is a fan he certainly isnt a welcome one; I dont feel that I should be held responsible for his actions either. Do you feel responsible for the actions of every individual GAA fan or player - the idiont who have recently partaken in sectarian or racist abuse that have been discussed frequently on here?


"we've got a provo on our team" I have never heard that sung at windsor in my life. When was it sung at lennon? If it was the night of the Norway game It was certainly by an extremely small portion of fans as I certainly didnt hear it at all.

As for his comments re. football for all, he could quite as easily not have made them. But as someone who has suffered due to bigotry perhaps he is keen to congratulate those working against it, perhaps he is a bigger man than many of the rest of us.

The chant above, if sung, was not directed at Lenny, but at this guy, Tommy Doherty.



The version I am familiar with was "We've got Gerry Adams on our team", a slightly humourous chant for a notoriously humourless bunch.

Still, can you imagine how such a chant would be received if sung in honour of the beardy boys on Sunday.

Besides, they tell me that "We've had a stickie b**tard on our team" would have been much more appropriate for Windsor Park.

[lynchbhoy]

have to laugh
the sectairan chants at rangers fc - that are ignored by the club, but are now reported for being sung elsewhere are seemingly drawing the usual responses from the apologists ...
yes the rangers fans sang that , but they are just doing the same as the celtic fans do
the usual oul sihte of 'equalising' to try and water down the issue (this time its not nifan to be fair to him - it seems to be mostly evil loyalist).

Celtic fc have taken steps at eradicating sectarian chants and songs etc (even though 90% of these songs were not actually sectarian - come on , fields of athery sectarian ! ! !)
rangers say they do but have yet to do feck all about it.

[Dannymcfella]

The fact that UEFA sanction rangers one way or another more or less every time they travel away in europe, yet the club itself nor the SFA fail to even condone the actions of their supporters (which is way above and beyond a minority which some fans may try to have people believe)

This famine song is racism of the highest order, if it was a sung about the jewish, asian etc then there would be an outcry.

[MW]

Facts about atmosphere, ethos at North of Ireland home games

1.Atmosphere, paraphernalia etc resembles a 12th of July Field

In what ways?

[MW]

Stibhan

Motioning that the "individual" who placed a death threat doesn't deserve the epithet "fan" is possibly one of the most cowardly and disgusting white-wash jobs I've ever heard.

So you are 100% certain it was a fan and not perhaps an england supporting loyalist? He probably was but how can you be sure? The point is if he is a fan he certainly isnt a welcome one; I dont feel that I should be held responsible for his actions either. Do you feel responsible for the actions of every individual GAA fan or player - the idiont who have recently partaken in sectarian or racist abuse that have been discussed frequently on here?


"we've got a provo on our team" I have never heard that sung at windsor in my life. When was it sung at lennon? If it was the night of the Norway game It was certainly by an extremely small portion of fans as I certainly didnt hear it at all.

As for his comments re. football for all, he could quite as easily not have made them. But as someone who has suffered due to bigotry perhaps he is keen to congratulate those working against it, perhaps he is a bigger man than many of the rest of us.

The chant above, if sung, was not directed at Lenny, but at this guy, Tommy Doherty.



The version I am familiar with was "We've got Gerry Adams on our team", a slightly humourous chant for a notoriously humourless bunch.

Still, can you imagine how such a chant would be received if sung in honour of the beardy boys on Sunday.

Besides, they tell me that "We've had a stickie b**tard on our team" would have been much more appropriate for Windsor Park.

Where do you get that sort of idea from?

Often it seems like every other chant that starts is an attempt at humour - some of them pretty poor...

[MW]

Stibhan

Motioning that the "individual" who placed a death threat doesn't deserve the epithet "fan" is possibly one of the most cowardly and disgusting white-wash jobs I've ever heard.

So you are 100% certain it was a fan and not perhaps an england supporting loyalist? He probably was but how can you be sure? The point is if he is a fan he certainly isnt a welcome one; I dont feel that I should be held responsible for his actions either. Do you feel responsible for the actions of every individual GAA fan or player - the idiont who have recently partaken in sectarian or racist abuse that have been discussed frequently on here?


"we've got a provo on our team" I have never heard that sung at windsor in my life. When was it sung at lennon? If it was the night of the Norway game It was certainly by an extremely small portion of fans as I certainly didnt hear it at all.

As for his comments re. football for all, he could quite as easily not have made them. But as someone who has suffered due to bigotry perhaps he is keen to congratulate those working against it, perhaps he is a bigger man than many of the rest of us.

Oh my f**king God. Eyewitness accounts are easily found of the "provo" song if you look hard enough. The Alliance website in particular has a few choice songs that one MLA or Councillor heard and I don't think that's a party with an anti-Northern Ireland agenda.

The point about me being responsible for every GAA moment of shame is obviously redundant. No, I don't feel responsible for actions like some fans ruining a minutes' silence for the London bombings at the Ulster final in 2005. The difference is that individuals are involved in these, and whilst I'm entirely sure that you had no part in either abusing or threatening Neil Lennon, the fact that Northern Ireland fans racially and sectarianly abused him in significant portions and for a significant amount of time was in my opinion the chief reason for the threat. We're not talking about one or two people at the Cyprus game, even if it wasn't a majority.

What really gets me is that the history of sectarianism and the Northern Irish football team's fans towards Catholics is well-documented. There's even a play about it. And you can apologise all you want for the actions of fans but as a Catholic nationalist I wouldn't me or any of my relatives anywhere near that team, to support or play for them, because I'd be so afraid of the consequences for me in terms of both verbal and physical abuse. And I too, having been the victim of sectarian abuse from a number of NI fans going towards a game, can appreciate that it is getting better, slowly but surely.

But for someone to tell me that "I didn't hear this" and take the Arsene Wenger approach is f**king cowardly. As a Celtic fan I'll tell you that I've heard some pretty sick chants from one or two my team's fans outside a ground but that when I go to a stadium the only "rebel" songs I've ever heard are dated by at least 60-70 years-- I'm talking about the Boys of the Old Brigade, Sean South, The Soldier's Song etc. What I've never seen is one of our best players hounded out of my team by any fans on the basis of religious discrimination bordering on racism. I've also never heard chants anything like "Trick or Treat" or "Greysteel 7 Ireland 0." And I ccouldn't give a f**k if you heard those chants or not, because there are plenty of people who did.

No there aren't.

Come on, "Greysteel 7 Ireland 0"??

Invented for the purposes of a play by Marie Jones. Who read a newpaper report with a false claim about a chant referring to Greysteel (and that report didn't even refer to a supposed "Greysteel 7 Ireland 0" chant - which quite clearly would make little sense in any case).

It it weren't so infuriating, this "fiction becomes urban myth becomes supposed fact" chain would be kind of interesting. One false claim about a chant of "Trick or Treat" is repeated in a newspaper, and it becomes a "fact". A playwright reads about this, and for the purposes of her own fictionalised version of events, writes in a 'chant' of "Greysteel 7 Ireland 0". Then people start claiming there are real life people who actually heard such a chant at the actual match.

Up there with people thinking Harry Houdini died inside a casket in a swimming pool, because that's where he's last seen in a biopic. Or people believing that George W. Bush actually said "The trouble with the French is that they have no word for entrepreneur".

[MW]

Stibhan

Motioning that the "individual" who placed a death threat doesn't deserve the epithet "fan" is possibly one of the most cowardly and disgusting white-wash jobs I've ever heard.

So you are 100% certain it was a fan and not perhaps an england supporting loyalist? He probably was but how can you be sure? The point is if he is a fan he certainly isnt a welcome one; I dont feel that I should be held responsible for his actions either. Do you feel responsible for the actions of every individual GAA fan or player - the idiont who have recently partaken in sectarian or racist abuse that have been discussed frequently on here?


"we've got a provo on our team" I have never heard that sung at windsor in my life. When was it sung at lennon? If it was the night of the Norway game It was certainly by an extremely small portion of fans as I certainly didnt hear it at all.

As for his comments re. football for all, he could quite as easily not have made them. But as someone who has suffered due to bigotry perhaps he is keen to congratulate those working against it, perhaps he is a bigger man than many of the rest of us.

Oh my f**king God. Eyewitness accounts are easily found of the "provo" song if you look hard enough. The Alliance website in particular has a few choice songs that one MLA or Councillor heard and I don't think that's a party with an anti-Northern Ireland agenda.

The point about me being responsible for every GAA moment of shame is obviously redundant. No, I don't feel responsible for actions like some fans ruining a minutes' silence for the London bombings at the Ulster final in 2005. The difference is that individuals are involved in these, and whilst I'm entirely sure that you had no part in either abusing or threatening Neil Lennon, the fact that Northern Ireland fans racially and sectarianly abused him in significant portions and for a significant amount of time was in my opinion the chief reason for the threat. We're not talking about one or two people at the Cyprus game, even if it wasn't a majority.

What really gets me is that the history of sectarianism and the Northern Irish football team's fans towards Catholics is well-documented. There's even a play about it. And you can apologise all you want for the actions of fans but as a Catholic nationalist I wouldn't me or any of my relatives anywhere near that team, to support or play for them, because I'd be so afraid of the consequences for me in terms of both verbal and physical abuse. And I too, having been the victim of sectarian abuse from a number of NI fans going towards a game, can appreciate that it is getting better, slowly but surely.

But for someone to tell me that "I didn't hear this" and take the Arsene Wenger approach is f**king cowardly. As a Celtic fan I'll tell you that I've heard some pretty sick chants from one or two my team's fans outside a ground but that when I go to a stadium the only "rebel" songs I've ever heard are dated by at least 60-70 years-- I'm talking about the Boys of the Old Brigade, Sean South, The Soldier's Song etc. What I've never seen is one of our best players hounded out of my team by any fans on the basis of religious discrimination bordering on racism. I've also never heard chants anything like "Trick or Treat" or "Greysteel 7 Ireland 0." And I ccouldn't give a f**k if you heard those chants or not, because there are plenty of people who did.

No there aren't.

Come on, "Greysteel 7 Ireland 0"??

Invented for the purposes of a play by Marie Jones. Who read a newpaper report with a false claim about a chant referring to Greysteel (and that report didn't even refer to a supposed "Greysteel 7 Ireland 0" chant - which quite clearly would make little sense in any case).

It it weren't so infuriating, this "fiction becomes urban myth becomes supposed fact" chain would be kind of interesting. One false claim about a chant of "Trick or Treat" is repeated in a newspaper, and it becomes a "fact". A playwright reads about this, and for the purposes of her own fictionalised version of events, writes in a 'chant' of "Greysteel 7 Ireland 0". Then people start claiming there are real life people who actually heard such a chant at the actual match.

Up there with people thinking Harry Houdini died inside a casket in a swimming pool, because that's where he's last seen in a biopic. Or people believing that George W. Bush actually said "The trouble with the French is that they have no word for entrepreneur".

Oh, here's another good one: umpteen "smart" people stating authoritatively that Josef Goebbels said "When I hear the word culture, I reach for my gun".

Possibly my favourite fallacy.

[cicfada]

I remember that night (1993)  very well. I was a student in Belfast at the time and the tension was unreal. I remember hearing the song being sung; "There is a house  in New Orleans they call the Rising Sun" and being disgusted at the time! I am sure it's a lot better now  but  the only way was up after that night!!

[updown9194]

No there aren't.

Come on, "Greysteel 7 Ireland 0"??

Invented for the purposes of a play by Marie Jones. Who read a newpaper report with a false claim about a chant referring to Greysteel (and that report didn't even refer to a supposed "Greysteel 7 Ireland 0" chant - which quite clearly would make little sense in any case).

It it weren't so infuriating, this "fiction becomes urban myth becomes supposed fact" chain would be kind of interesting. One false claim about a chant of "Trick or Treat" is repeated in a newspaper, and it becomes a "fact". A playwright reads about this, and for the purposes of her own fictionalised version of events, writes in a 'chant' of "Greysteel 7 Ireland 0". Then people start claiming there are real life people who actually heard such a chant at the actual match.

Up there with people thinking Harry Houdini died inside a casket in a swimming pool, because that's where he's last seen in a biopic. Or people believing that George W. Bush actually said "The trouble with the French is that they have no word for entrepreneur".

You don't have the emotional detachment nor the authority to tell anyone that such claims are false. Yours is but an opinion in an ocean full of them, swaying back and forth with the rest of our takes on what happened.

In any case, let's say I consider your viewpoint and accept that there was no chant of "Greysteel 7, Ireland 0." It no more makes anything less disgusting than if someone reworded the death threat placed upon Lennon. There is absolutely no question that there was sectarian singing at that game, and chants about what happened at Greysteel. I've heard reports of Bingham conducting the sash that night, for f**k's sake, which I take with a pinch of salt but the fact remains that the night in question was a low point in soccer on this island, probably moreso than any other.

Your analogy with Bush is pretty interesting, and fitting in my opinion. Just like Bush, the fans of your team are surrounded in rumour and controversy, and whilst Bush may not have said that exact thing, it would hardly be surprising if he did given his track record. Incidentally, quotes of poorer intelligence have been genuinely attributed to him at certain times. See what I'm getting at here?

[MW]

You don't have the emotional detachment nor the authority to tell anyone that such claims are false. Yours is but an opinion in an ocean full of them, swaying back and forth with the rest of our takes on what happened.

I was actually at the match. And I know, and have known, scores of other people who were too.

In any case, let's say I consider your viewpoint and accept that there was no chant of "Greysteel 7, Ireland 0." It no more makes anything less disgusting than if someone reworded the death threat placed upon Lennon. There is absolutely no question that there was sectarian singing at that game, and chants about what happened at Greysteel.

Can't you read? There is a "question" that there were chants about what happened at Greysteel - I'm telling you that this did not happen.

I've heard reports of Bingham conducting the sash that night, for f**k's sake, which I take with a pinch of salt

Good because it's another piece of complete bollocks.

but the fact remains that the night in question was a low point in soccer on this island, probably moreso than any other.

That's not a fact, that's your opinion. What is a fact is that a significant minority at an international football match sang nasty sectarian songs, at a high-stakes and high-tension game, and at a time when political and social tensions in Northern Ireland were simmering just below boiling point.

Whether this is more of a "low point" than the IRA and INLA targeting NI matches with bomb attacks, the UDA/UFF attempting to murder Cliftonville fans with a grenade, or longer ago a Belfast Celtic player having his leg broken by Linfield "fans", or Celtic "fans" causing the abandonment of a cup semi-final and one of their number trying to murder Glentoran fans with a revolver...well, that's a matter of debate and opinion.

Your analogy with Bush is pretty interesting, and fitting in my opinion. Just like Bush, the fans of your team are surrounded in rumour and controversy, and whilst Bush may not have said that exact thing, it would hardly be surprising if he did given his track record. Incidentally, quotes of poorer intelligence have been genuinely attributed to him at certain times. See what I'm getting at here?

Yes, what you're getting at is that you're an idiot. Try to look at the actual point I was making. ("Incidentally", several of the other quotes attibuted to Bush are false also)

I could just as easily have picked the Neil Armstrong "good luck Mr Gorsky" story. Or the umpteen times people have said Edward Carson prosecuted Oscar Wilde.

Or I could have mentioned Roy Keane's "autobiography", which contained some brilliant fallacies rounfd the match in question:

- "Keane" wrote of how the sectarianism coming from the terraces was bad, but he was shocked that the same was coming from the stands (in the real world, the terraces were closed and therefore empty that night)
- "he" also said Northern Ireland at that point had never had a Catholic manager (In the real world, Peter Doherty, "the Prince of Inside-Forwards", who managed NI to the 1958 World Cup quarter finals, was a Catholic)
- Linfield had not long before the match signed their first Catholic player, who was also black, the manager was unpopular because of this and was sacked (in the real world, the "black Catholic" was presumably Antoine Coly who wasn't Linfield's first Catholic player, and was signed in 1988. Roy Coyle, Linfield manager who signed him, resigned in 1990 after losing six times to Glentoran in one season.)

[saffron sam2]

Stibhan

Motioning that the "individual" who placed a death threat doesn't deserve the epithet "fan" is possibly one of the most cowardly and disgusting white-wash jobs I've ever heard.

So you are 100% certain it was a fan and not perhaps an england supporting loyalist? He probably was but how can you be sure? The point is if he is a fan he certainly isnt a welcome one; I dont feel that I should be held responsible for his actions either. Do you feel responsible for the actions of every individual GAA fan or player - the idiont who have recently partaken in sectarian or racist abuse that have been discussed frequently on here?


"we've got a provo on our team" I have never heard that sung at windsor in my life. When was it sung at lennon? If it was the night of the Norway game It was certainly by an extremely small portion of fans as I certainly didnt hear it at all.

As for his comments re. football for all, he could quite as easily not have made them. But as someone who has suffered due to bigotry perhaps he is keen to congratulate those working against it, perhaps he is a bigger man than many of the rest of us.

The chant above, if sung, was not directed at Lenny, but at this guy, Tommy Doherty.



The version I am familiar with was "We've got Gerry Adams on our team", a slightly humourous chant for a notoriously humourless bunch.

Still, can you imagine how such a chant would be received if sung in honour of the beardy boys on Sunday.

Besides, they tell me that "We've had a stickie b**tard on our team" would have been much more appropriate for Windsor Park.

Where do you get that sort of idea from?

Often it seems like every other chant that starts is an attempt at humour - some of them pretty poor...

My teacher first told me in P1. She said the Ulster Protestant doesn't have a sense of humour and that they would rely on the use of smilies to indicate if something is intended to be funny. Then every other teacher / priest / relative / member of the GAA reinforced that stereotype. I have seen little in my 30+ years to dispute their theory, although I am open minded enough not to pass this on to my own students, allowing them instead to form their own opinions. 

Although the Gerry Adams chant, if sung, had a bit of humour in it.

Was it sung?

Was my teacher in P1 wrong? She also told me Santa Claus was real.

[updown9194]

I was actually at the match. And I know, and have known, scores of other people who were too.

You were at the match, right? So you're part of the alleged group that were singing such songs, or at least if you said to anyone with knowledge of what happened that you were at the match it would implicate you in it. Hence the lack of detatchment. Given that there were TV cameras  and radio microphones at the game I don't think there can be much debate. A number of NI fans I've spoken to certainly seemed to indicate that these chants were true anyway so I'll take their word for it.

Can't you read? There is a "question" that there were chants about what happened at Greysteel - I'm telling you that this did not happen.

Don't patronise me. You cannot speak for everyone who was there so do not attempt to. I've heard plenty of nationalists assure me that there was, and this is in person, and let's just say the position of such people and their employment would almost certainly underly a reliability that your anonymity doesn't possess. You're also visibly getting emotionally involved in what I'm claiming here so perhaps you should calm down before barking out commands.

Good because it's another piece of complete bollocks.

Again, emotionally disturbed by such claims. Why can't you respond to it with a cogent and well-thought out account of what you did and didn't see or hear that night?

That's not a fact, that's your opinion.

What is a fact is that a significant minority at an international football match sang nasty sectarian songs, at a high-stakes and high-tension game, and at a time when political and social tensions in Northern Ireland were simmering just below boiling point.

Once again, no emotional detachment to validly assert whether it was or was not a minority.

Whether this is more of a "low point" than the IRA and INLA targeting NI matches with bomb attacks, the UDA/UFF attempting to murder Cliftonville fans with a grenade, or longer ago a Belfast Celtic player having his leg broken by Linfield "fans", or Celtic "fans" causing the abandonment of a cup semi-final and one of their number trying to murder Glentoran fans with a revolver...well, that's a matter of debate and opinion.

Or a player having to quit international football because he was a Catholic? Certainly in recent memory both of these things stick out, especially in the advent of peace that was brewing during the 90's.

(Isn't that revolver story from Call My Brother Back by Michael McLaverty? Did that happen?)

Yes, what you're getting at is that you're an idiot. Try to look at the actual point I was making. ("Incidentally", several of the other quotes attibuted to Bush are false also)

Sweetheart, I'd be willing to bet that I'm more intelligent than you are, and judging by your posts a lot more relaxed as well. I know exactly what point you were making but it served my explanation very well. And before you get into a defence of George Bush, I'm talking about things that have been caught on camera and microphone. Using derogatory epithets behind the mask of a pseudonym doesn't add to your argument's veracity, either.

I could just as easily have picked the Neil Armstrong "good luck Mr Gorsky" story. Or the umpteen times people have said Edward Carson prosecuted Oscar Wilde.

No, Carson didn't prosecute Wilde. But the reasons for thinking that he did are valid enough. If you take the verb "to prosecute" in the legal sense, it can mean "to seek to enforce or obtain by legal process." So, in a way, given that he cross-examined him... take it away, wikipedia:

"In 1895 he was engaged by the Marquess of Queensberry to lead his defence against Oscar Wilde's libel action. This meant his job was in effect to prosecute Wilde, who had been his contemporary and rival at Trinity College."

You say legal tomato, I say legal tomato.

Or I could have mentioned Roy Keane's "autobiography", which contained some brilliant fallacies rounfd the match in question:

- "Keane" wrote of how the sectarianism coming from the terraces was bad, but he was shocked that the same was coming from the stands (in the real world, the terraces were closed and therefore empty that night)
- "he" also said Northern Ireland at that point had never had a Catholic manager (In the real world, Peter Doherty, "the Prince of Inside-Forwards", who managed NI to the 1958 World Cup quarter finals, was a Catholic)
- Linfield had not long before the match signed their first Catholic player, who was also black, the manager was unpopular because of this and was sacked (in the real world, the "black Catholic" was presumably Antoine Coly who wasn't Linfield's first Catholic player, and was signed in 1988. Roy Coyle, Linfield manager who signed him, resigned in 1990 after losing six times to Glentoran in one season.)

None of this interests me. I didn't claim any of the above.

What is shocking is your refusal to even criticise the NI team slightly in these posts. You have yet to concede that the NI team sang about the loyalist atrocities. In your defence of "Keane's" (stop trying to be subtle, anyone with a decent knowledge of footballing autobiographies knows it was ghost-written, as most are) allegations against Linfield you seem to neglect to say that Linfield possess certainly a considerable minority of reprehensible fans who appear to like nothing better than kicking and stabbing anything that isn't blue.

As such, this is why these stories about both teams circulate and people believe them. I for one would hardly be shocked if such allegations by Dunphy/Keane were proved true, even if they are inaccurate.

[nifan]

I'd be willing to bet that I'm more intelligent than you are

so stibhan how are we comparing your intelligence?

[updown9194]

I'd be willing to bet that I'm more intelligent than you are

so stibhan how are we comparing your intelligence?

IQ test? You ever seen Billy Madison? The scene with the intellectual marathon?

I just don't appreciate being called an idiot by someone who is hiding behind a keyboard. You can insult what I say or do all you want but I take exception to personal abuse, especially from someone with a clear agenda. Considering that you for the most part had the decency to take on what I said, even if I was using language to indicate my frustration, without resorting to such insults-- insults that are more or less a precedent for the fans that come on here to defend their team-- I think that the rest of the OWC contingent could do similar.