2008 Ulster Club Championships

[orangeman]

Are both clubs expecting any suspensions or fines ( not that I'm advocating that by the way ) ?

[DoYerJob Linesman]

There is not one completely unbiased opinion in any argument as each individual has their own agenda, no matter how small it may be.

I do not condone Francie's actions, but as an old friend I refuse to get involved in ripping into him either.  I have said he should not have done what he did and if anyone knows that better than him, I would be surprised.  In the end the referee made a call and hopped the ball instead of giving him the free.  It would be interesting to see his report at the meeting tonight. 

Like you, I do not question my source in respect of the tunnel incident, but it comes down to who saw what and when.  What happened to the the Ballinderry sub may well have happened as you describe, but did he see everything that happened in the build up to what happened to him.  I would hazard a guess at no.  The truth of any event is deciphered from a cumulation of descriptions and opinions.  Once these have all been gathered together and torn apart and then put back together, then you will have about half of the truth.  The simple fact is that something happened and the blame game that has been rife is wrong, as at the end of things it will make no difference to the result and will not give anyone a sense of satisfaction.

I'll PM you my mobile number and we'll talk into the wee hours...

[Mack the finger]

Disappointed with the game on Sunday as I was hoping of a match
to equal the one a fortnight earlier. First half was brutal with no
football played. Unfortunately for B'derry, they scored their goal
too early in the second half. Might have put a bit of pressure on Cross if there
were ten minutes to go. Cross were majestic and squeezed
the life out of B'derry in the last fifteen minutes. Like one
of those wildlife programmes featuring a Python and a gazelle.
Not sure what generates that sort of hunger, but maybe it's
as simple as success breeding success. Or a python liking
the taste of a gazelle.

Good to see a full blooded game. Seeped into the crowd a bit
in the first half, but it's club football in December. Half of one
and six of one of the other as far as the crowd were concerned.
Be good to witness a few more games like this and less of the
oul basketball. God forbid that emotions run high. B'derry had
a lot of childer amongst their supporters and didn't think much of their booing
Aaron Kernan taking free's, leave that to the soccer. Though
it probably annoyed me more than Aaron. But he did miss.

Fair play to referee and linesmen. Difficult game to call, but I
think, after an initial cagey ten minutes, he got it about right.

The Francie incident looks worse in the replay. Personally thought
there was an incident where a cross player came sliding into the
back of a B'derry player that was a lot worse. But there were
a lot of incidents that look worse on TV. At the time its just
football, both giving it all. Too much television post
analyis and retribution and all ebb and flow will be gone.
Sure, punish the obviously guilty, (Francie), but remember
its club football, its December, there's an Ulster title at stake.

More Ulster Club football please!

Sorry if I've stated the bleedin obvious!

[full back]

The Ulster Council has asked Crossmaglen and Ballinderry to explain the scenes which marred Sunday's provincial club final replay.

The provincial body discussed the issue at a scheduled meeting on Tuesday night and referee Brian Crowe's match report was heard.

A brawl broke out in the tunnel at Brewster Park as the players headed to the dressing-room at half-time.

TV replays didn't appear to indicate the precise culprits.

There were also reports of disturbances in the crowd among supporters.

Referees usually have three days to submit their match reports but Crowe was asked to have his account ready for Tuesday's meeting.

Following Tuesday's discussions, the Ulster Council investigation appears unlikely to be concluded until after Christmas.

Crossmaglen won their third successive AIB Ulster Club title in Sunday's game.

[orangeman]

Adrian Mc Guckin in today's IN says that Francie should have been sent off.

He probably should have been but it shows that you have to be very careful what you say to the journos !

[bennydorano]

goh4025

both you & BC make very good points on all the incidents, but regarding your view of the tunnel issue, your sub is telling a porky & i don't make that point lightly.  I seen the incident & the B/derry sub struck first as I stated before, this is what kicked it all off.

Seems like your trying to do your own bit of PR for the club Doyourjob.

You dont seem to miss much, but you were reporting nonsense from the Harps v Cross semi, so I wouldn't believe your oath.

I find Cross supporters a bit arrogant, but they've certainly earned the right to be - not the blow in supporters.

[saffron sam2]

I also heard what happened first hand, and it is remarkably similar to the above except from the opposite stand point.  Players from both teams were ambling towards the changing rooms, when the Cross subs, on mass, ran quickly towards the tunnel.  One of our subs was pushed to the ground from behind, and on getting up, was floored by a second sub.

Aside from the phonetic spelling of en masse, I would agree with what you posted. It was this stampede that I was most concerned with and why I suggest that the melee had been pre-planned or at the very least discussed by one of the squads involved.

Don't get me wrong, they were worthy victors.  But their greatest victory is that of their PR machine, which puts forward the opinion that these boys are some sort of modern day footballing angels.  They are winners, for which they deserve credit.  However, for some of their other actions, they at least deserve parity with their opponents in the column inches.

Hard to argue with any of that comment either DYJL.

[goh4205]

goh4025

both you & BC make very good points on all the incidents, but regarding your view of the tunnel issue, your sub is telling a porky & i don't make that point lightly.  I seen the incident & the B/derry sub struck first as I stated before, this is what kicked it all off.

Seems like your trying to do your own bit of PR for the club Doyourjob.

You dont seem to miss much, but you were reporting nonsense from the Harps v Cross semi, so I wouldn't believe your oath.
what Nonsence was that Benny.

I find Cross supporters a bit arrogant, but they've certainly earned the right to be - not the blow in supporters.

So are you implying if you went to a game as a neutral that would restrict you from commenting on that game?

[bennydorano]

Neutral? Regular posters on the Armagh Club thread might argue that point.  A blow in Cross supporter would be a better description.

[The GAA]

Jesus will you give up on this neutral craic goh. you're fooling noone

[Joxer]

Very few, me included have condoned Francie.  Some outright condemn him, others less so.

but others have condemned it so I don't see your point.  



As regards the tunnel incident, the second half of your statement is close to what I was told.  I do not know if what you say is correct in that a Ballinderry sub was knocked over first.  What I was told was a first hand account of someone involved and he may or may not have seen everything, the same way as your eyewitness may or may not have seen everything.  Anyway, it is a matter of opinion again as to who started it, without clear first hand knowledge through video footage or personally witnessing it.

As regards Tony Kernan diving, I think it is accepted that he was struck by Wilkinson.  The ref had a clearer view of it than anyone, and if he did push/strike then it is a minimum yellow and as he was already on one there was no option other than to send him off.




 I would hope that they realise that they are a much better team than they showed last Sunday, as they got a small bit carried away with the hard man approach, when it was clear that football would have been a better option for them.

Your reply is a reasonable and eloquent one, and naturally comes from a biased viewpoint, as does mine. I have some issues with the qoutes above:

Firstly, Francies headbutt has been met with a fraction of the uproar that Conways dive was given.  This sickens me to be honest, as I think Francie has "disgraced" himself at least as much as Darren had.

Regarding the tunnel incident, my info comes from our sub who was pushed and then punched to the ground.t

Thirdly, I accept that Conor Wilkinson hit Tony Kernan, in the STOMACH.  Tony fell to the ground holding his face, and was still holding his face as the ref booked himself and Conor.  This is playacting in my book, the same crime as Conway/

I, finally, do accept that we are a better team than we showed last Sunday.  However, the hard man approach you speak off was used in abundance by Cross, on many occasions, more so than us I would argue.

We are not going to agree on this as we come from polar opposite view points .  My beef is not with you BC1, but more with sections of the printed media.  Martin McHugh, Brendan Crossan and Kenny Archer, to name but a few, were outraged and very outspoken after the drawn game regarding Darren Conway.  Why is this outrage not transferrable to Fraincie?  Surely this is a valid point?

both you & BC make very good points on all the incidents, but regarding your view of the tunnel issue, your sub is telling a porky & i don't make that point lightly.  I seen the incident & the B/derry sub struck first as I stated before, this is what kicked it all off.

Seems like your trying to do your own bit of PR for the club Doyourjob.

Sooooooooooo............GOH  Out of all the people on here,  and I believe there are a few who were actually closer to the incident than they want us to know, with  you not being a Crossmaglen Supporter and with it nearly being impossible to see from anywhere in Brewster Park that day, your really not from Crossmaglen thenor involved with them someway perhaps?

[goh4205]

Very few, me included have condoned Francie.  Some outright condemn him, others less so.

but others have condemned it so I don't see your point.  



As regards the tunnel incident, the second half of your statement is close to what I was told.  I do not know if what you say is correct in that a Ballinderry sub was knocked over first.  What I was told was a first hand account of someone involved and he may or may not have seen everything, the same way as your eyewitness may or may not have seen everything.  Anyway, it is a matter of opinion again as to who started it, without clear first hand knowledge through video footage or personally witnessing it.

As regards Tony Kernan diving, I think it is accepted that he was struck by Wilkinson.  The ref had a clearer view of it than anyone, and if he did push/strike then it is a minimum yellow and as he was already on one there was no option other than to send him off.




 I would hope that they realise that they are a much better team than they showed last Sunday, as they got a small bit carried away with the hard man approach, when it was clear that football would have been a better option for them.

Your reply is a reasonable and eloquent one, and naturally comes from a biased viewpoint, as does mine. I have some issues with the qoutes above:

Firstly, Francies headbutt has been met with a fraction of the uproar that Conways dive was given.  This sickens me to be honest, as I think Francie has "disgraced" himself at least as much as Darren had.

Regarding the tunnel incident, my info comes from our sub who was pushed and then punched to the ground.t

Thirdly, I accept that Conor Wilkinson hit Tony Kernan, in the STOMACH.  Tony fell to the ground holding his face, and was still holding his face as the ref booked himself and Conor.  This is playacting in my book, the same crime as Conway/

I, finally, do accept that we are a better team than we showed last Sunday.  However, the hard man approach you speak off was used in abundance by Cross, on many occasions, more so than us I would argue.

We are not going to agree on this as we come from polar opposite view points .  My beef is not with you BC1, but more with sections of the printed media.  Martin McHugh, Brendan Crossan and Kenny Archer, to name but a few, were outraged and very outspoken after the drawn game regarding Darren Conway.  Why is this outrage not transferrable to Fraincie?  Surely this is a valid point?

both you & BC make very good points on all the incidents, but regarding your view of the tunnel issue, your sub is telling a porky & i don't make that point lightly.  I seen the incident & the B/derry sub struck first as I stated before, this is what kicked it all off.

Seems like your trying to do your own bit of PR for the club Doyourjob.

Sooooooooooo............GOH  Out of all the people on here,  and I believe there are a few who were actually closer to the incident than they want us to know, with  you not being a Crossmaglen Supporter and with it nearly being impossible to see from anywhere in Brewster Park that day, your really not from Crossmaglen thenor involved with them someway perhaps?

No Joxer I'm not.  I was standing at the bottom end goals right beside the fence on the way into the tunnel, so i had a clear view as i said. I don't know the name of the Cross sub that got the first belt, but I do know the name of the other cross sub who ran after the B/derry sub and floored him. As the other players came in, it just went from there.  To be honest I didn't see that many punches thrown, it was more pushing & shoving really.

[The GAA]

He's a player all right. always seems to be sitting in wee nook or cranny which allows him to see things in cross games that noone else in the ground sees

[billy the kid]

Quote from corn 02 on Dec 15
The Cross fans would have a reputation for being a bad bunch.

This is not the general consensus in the county. You are the only Armagh poster who continually criticises the Cross support.
I am not going to pretend that they are perfect as every club has a few "eejits" but they are far from being the worst behaved in the county.
Mind you there are a good few slobbers among the Dromintee faithful.

That aside, i have been watching football for over 30 years and Ballinderry have the worst behaved  supporters i have ever witnessed.
I moved at half time in both the drawn game and the replay to get away from foul mouthed supporters but each time it was a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Thats actually pretty funny Crossfire.  I have been to quite a few Cross games this year both Inside and outside Armagh and I can say for certain that The Cross fans can be very foul mouthed and in your face with plenty of very abusive and aggressive individuals cheering and jeering. (there are also many decent Cross supporters who chat away with you no probs)

However they are nowhere near the worst Armagh Club fans I have experienced, the wonderful honour is between Pearse Ogs and Armagh Harps. Both these sets of fans are the worst I have ever come across in Club Football anywhere. Now I do Realise that all Clubs have their Head the Balls and and that both these clubs have genuinely good supporters also, but Having been at plenty of Ogs and Harps games over the last number of years, both clubs have a very sizeable unsavoury element.

Being at Ogs games and being at Harps games has introduced me to a level of bad manners, abuse, jeering, bad language and name calling (to players and officials) that I find most uncomfortable.  Both teams seem to attract a strangely large number of sc**bags and dodgy characters, which is probably due to being from a large town, and after some of the games i have been very glad to be leaving the pitch.  What I find the most dissapointing about this is, the fact that although both teams are nowhere near Crossmaglen in terms of ability, they are the next best teams in Armagh, and are probably the only ones with any hope of putting it up to cross in the near future, and the antics of there fans are definately not a help and would also nearly make me not support the underdog in such a challenge.  

At county level the Monaghan fans are by far the worst I have encountered and they just rain down vile abuse on opposing players and officials from start of games to the finish.  Every foul given against them is "A complete f**king Joke" and the ref has it in for them or his parents arent married.  This was particuarly amusing at the AI QF against Kerry in 2007 where the Monaghan CB was marking Gooch Cooper just in front of where I was sitting among a large Monaghan Contingent. Before the ball had even been thrown in the CB was stamping on Coopers toes, digging him in the ribs, and putting the studs down the back of his ankles.

Cooper tried not to get involved and was shouting to the umpire who was ignoring him. This was greeted by the Monaghan supporters jeering and shouting at cooper like, "dont be crying to him you wee yella B*****D, take your F**king medicine you wee Ginger C**t, Why dont you shout for your F**king Mammy you wee ginger bollocks".  This only encouraged the CB who proceeded to punch Cooper in the ribs and pull his jersey when he tried to move, wrestling him to the ground a couple of times. Each time the monaghan fans poured more foul mouthed expletives on Cooper and on the poor old Kerry couple (about 65+) who were sitting 2 rows in front of me.

Finally the CB punched Cooper on the back of the head (which was roundly cheered by these so called GAA fans) after another of his toe tramping and ankle stamping sessions and tried to pull Cooper to the ground but cooper pushed back this time and after a bit of wrestling Cooper overpowered the CB and pushed him to the ground. At no time did Cooper strike or attempt to strike as all he did was grab the CBs hands when he was grabbed around the neck and remove them  forcing him to the ground.

The Monaghan supporters were outraged and were claiming a punch at first then it was a punch and a stamp on the ground and so the game of chineses whisper began, (by the time I got home from the game Gooch cooper had knee capped the CB and stabbed him with a knife he had hid in his Boot and it had happened as the CB had been kneeling in the corner saying a decade of the rosary). The old couple in front of me were told that Cooper was,  "a wee dirty B*****d, A F**king tr**p, A Yella C**t" and the like.  The Umpire was also called all the names under the sun for not doing his jb and being a biased so and so. Which was Ironic considering that these same fans were telling Cooper only 5 mins earlier that the umpire wasnt going to help him, and that was when Cooper was being wronged not like the CB who was acting the C**t and was basically pushed out of the road on this occaision.

Just in case anyone thinks these were teenagers or young people shouting the abuse, it was grown men and women and the worst was a group of about 4 men and 3 women sitting in the row between me and the Old couple, and this group were all about 45-50 years of age. What a lovely example they were setting to the young people of our association.

[bennydorano]

However they are nowhere near the worst Armagh Club fans I have experienced, the wonderful honour is between Pearse Ogs and Armagh Harps. Both these sets of fans are the worst I have ever come across in Club Football anywhere. Now I do Realise that all Clubs have their Head the Balls and and that both these clubs have genuinely good supporters also, but Having been at plenty of Ogs and Harps games over the last number of years, both clubs have a very sizeable unsavoury element.

Being at Ogs games and being at Harps games has introduced me to a level of bad manners, abuse, jeering, bad language and name calling (to players and officials) that I find most uncomfortable.  Both teams seem to attract a strangely large number of sc**bags and dodgy characters, which is probably due to being from a large town, and after some of the games i have been very glad to be leaving the pitch.  What I find the most dissapointing about this is, the fact that although both teams are nowhere near Crossmaglen in terms of ability, they are the next best teams, and are probably the only ones with any hope of putting it up to cross in the near future, and the antics of there fans are definately not a help and would also nearly make me not support the underdog in such a challenge. 

I cant speak for the Ogs but I would totally refute your allegations, jugdging by it's composition I would doubt whether you've actually been to many of our games.  We have a hardcore of about 50 odd who regularly attend league games whom I could name individually - I dont know any scumbags or dodgy characters who attend our games.

Maybe you could elaborate.