Georgia/Russia

[J70]

Not everyone here is falling for the propaganda J70, some do know the truth regarding Georgia and other World affairs.

Why, because they happen to agree with your interpretation?

Afghanistan had nothing to do with 911, we were lied into the war with Iraq, if you think otherwise you are in the minority.

Regarding the FOX interview it is best you watch it when you go home, my words would not do it justice.

The hard-break excuse. However, she did get to make her claim and he did come back to her, even if he attempted to immediately downplay what she said with the "gray areas in war" statement. However, I'm sure there have been a few Georgian citizens in the same boat who have been interviewed, so I don't see how one interview like that proves much except that it hints at what everyone already knows about Fox News.

As to having a minority view, in itself that would never, ever dissuade me from a position. I'm in a small minority of the world's population who are atheist, while I'm among about one in ten American citizens who accepts that life arose through unguided evolution. Just because an opinion is shared by only a minority does not make it wrong.

That said, I don't ever remember being told Afghanistan itself was directly responsible for 9/11. That it was a repressive fundamentalist Muslim regime harbouring terrorists, specifically Bin Laden and his operations, was the logic, as far as I recall. Has that story changed?

[J70]

This is a comment from a Russian girl after viewing the FOX interview.

"I'm so happy that you guys can understand now what's goin on! Because when i start to read american news in the internet i just can't believe... How can they lie so hard! I'm russian and I live here. And i know what is goin on simply cuz I'm closer to it, and many georgian and osetian people live here and they know... Russian government is wrong too... They're all (russian, greargian, american, european governments) to blame. But russians didn't started this war.
Peace.Love "

Again, Seamus, what does a statement like this prove? A Russian girl on youtube blames the Georgians for starting it. That's hardly a surprise.

Take this board for example: how many back-and-forth and neverending debates have there been here involving lads like nifan and Evil Genius and some of the other lads from unionist backgrounds where no agreement can be reached on issues because each side has their own perspective and justification for the wrongs that were done in the north?

[J70]

More proof, this time from an American tourist

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=yCwTo9AdT2c

Yet even more, CNN caught lying

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVNblG9PJMk

AGAIN, that may all be true. However, Russia Today has alleged ties to the Russian authorities - if this was Fox News presenting a view favourable to Bush you'd be screaming propaganda (the comparison to the Holocaust is a nice touch)! Some journalist called Dunbar allegedly resigned from Russia Today under protest about being prevented from reporting Russian bombings in Georgia.

I have no idea if the report about the cameraman's footage is true or not.

As I have said several times on this thread, I do not know who to believe amidst this fog of propaganda.

[DrinkingHarp]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russia claims pullback but forces move other way By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 57 minutes ago



GORI, Georgia - Russia said Monday it had begun withdrawing from the conflict zone in Georgia, but it held fast to key positions and sent some of its troops in the opposite direction — closer to the Georgian capital.



Russian troops and vehicles roamed freely around the strategically located central city of Gori, Russian forces appeared to blow up the runway at a military base in the western town of Senaki.

There were few signs Russia was following the terms of a cease-fire to end the short war, which has driven tensions between Russia and the West to some of their highest levels since the breakup of the Soviet Union.

In Paris, the French foreign minister said it appeared "we are witnessing the start" of a Russian withdrawal, but warned France would call an emergency meeting of the European Council to talk about consequences for Russia if that was not the case.

But U.S. defense and military officials said they had seen no significant movement yet of Russian troops withdrawing from Georgia.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, on her way to an emergency meeting of NATO foreign ministers, said Russia was playing a "very dangerous game and perhaps one the Russians want to reconsider."

She said the United States and its allies would not allow Russia to draw a "new line" through Europe and intimidate former Soviet republics and former satellite states.

The foreign ministers were set to meet Tuesday in Brussels, Belgium, to consider whether to go ahead with upcoming activities planned with Russia, from military exercises to diplomatic meetings.

The European Union-brokered peace plan signed by both Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili calls for both sides to pull forces back to the positions they held before fighting broke out Aug. 7. Medvedev had told French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Sunday that Russian troops would begin pulling back on Monday, but stopped short of promising they would return to Russia.

Russia sent its tanks and troops into Georgia after Georgia cracked down on the separatist, pro-Russian province of South Ossetia. Fighting has also flared in a second breakaway region, Abkhazia.

In Moscow, the deputy chief of the Russian general staff, Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, told a briefing that "today, according to the peace plan, the withdrawal of Russian peacekeepers and reinforcements has begun" and said forces were leaving Gori.

But Russian tanks and troops roamed freely around the city and made forays toward the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, 55 miles to the southeast. Russia also kept control of the critical highway that slices through Georgia's midsection.

AP reporters saw four Russian armored personnel carriers, each carrying about 15 men, rolling from Gori to Igoeti, a crossroads town even closer to Tbilisi, passing Georgian soldiers who sat by the roadside.

The Russians moved into Igoeti then turned off onto a side road. As the Russian vehicles rolled past a group of Georgian soldiers and policemen, one swerved and scraped a new Georgian police car. The Georgians looked down at their fingernails.

U.S. officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were discussing intelligence reports, said at least one Russian battalion equipped with more than a dozen SS-21 missile launchers had moved into South Ossetia, within range of Tbilisi. Nogovitsyn disputed the claim.

The RIA-Novosti news agency reported that the leader of South Ossetia, Eduard Kokoity, asked Russia on Monday to establish a permanent base there.

Nogovitsyn said the Russian troops were pulling back to South Ossetia, but the boundaries of the Russian presence remained unclear. He said "troops should not be in the territory of Georgia," but it was unclear whether that excluded patrols.

Russian troops were restricting access to Gori, where shops were shut and people milled around on the central square.

"The city is a cold place now. People are fearful," said Nona Khizanishvili, 44, who fled Gori a week ago for an outlying village and returned Monday, trying to reach her son in Tbilisi.

Georgia's Rustavi-2 television showed footage of a Russian armored vehicle smashing through a group of Georgian police cars barricading the road to Gori on Monday. One of the cars was dragged along the street by the Russian armor. Georgian police stood by without even raising their guns as the Russian vehicle crushed through the roadblock.

In Senaki, a series of explosions were heard from the military base in the afternoon. Later, three separate blasts that appeared to destroy the airport runway shook the leaves on trees more than a mile away.

Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said Russian forces had blown up the runway. There was no confirmation from Russian military officials.

Earlier, Russian troops had allowed displaced people to get to the base to retrieve their belongings. Cars emerged loaded with goods, including televisions and refrigerators.

A planned exchange of prisoners captured during the fighting fell through, with each sides blaming the other. It was not clear how many prisoners were to be exchanged. Georgian officials another attempt could take place Tuesday.

In Vladikavkaz, near the border with Georgia, Medvedev gave medals to 30 soldiers and servicemen involved in the conflict. He called them heroes and said they had fought "a cowardly aggression.

"I am sure that such a well conducted, effective peacemaking operation aimed at protecting our citizens and other people will be among the most glorious deeds of the Russian military," Medvedev said.

While Western leaders have called Russia's response disproportionate, Medvedev repeated Russian accusations of genocide.

"The world realized that even now there are political freaks who were ready to kill innocent people for the sake of political fashions and who compensated for their own stupidity by eliminating a whole nation," he said.

An Associated Press cameraman was slightly injured outside Gori after four men in camouflage, possibly from an Ossetian militia, pulled up in a car and told him to stop filming.

When the cameraman resisted, the driver produced a pistol and started shooting at the ground. The cameraman, who sustained light ricochet wounds to his legs, handed over the cassette.

The Pentagon said that up to five C-130 aircraft are expected to fly into Georgia Tuesday with supplies, and that three had landed Monday as part of the relief effort. In addition to food, medical aid, tents and bedding, the U.S. is sending forklifts to help unload and move the supplies.

The United Nations refugee agency said more than 158,000 people had been displaced by the conflict, most of them within Georgia.

"I think the Russians will pull out, but will damage Georgia strongly," said Givi Sikharulidze, who lives in Tbilisi. "Georgia will survive, but Russia has lost its credibility in the eyes of the world."

___

Associated Press writers David Nowak, Jim Heintz, Steve Gutterman and Jill Lawless in Moscow, Matti Friedman in Gori, Georgia; Christopher Torchia and Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili in Tbilisi, Georgia; Bela Szandelszky in Senaki, Georgia; Mansur Mirovalev in Vladikavkaz, Russia; and Lolita C. Baldor and Pauline Jelinek in Washington contributed to this report.

[muppet]

if this was Fox News presenting a view favourable to Bush you'd be screaming propaganda (the comparison to the Holocaust is a nice touch)!

Let me guess, Fox is a quality news organisation that presents a balanced view of world affairs? 

It is impossible for the internets junkies to decide accurately what is true and what is not.

However I'd say a lot those not overdosed with Neo-Con propaganda, will rightly or wrongly, come down on the side furthest away from the likes of Fox.

As for Bush's I.Q none of the articles in his defence mention his alcoholism and the damage that likely to have been done as a result. They are all based on results achived in his youth. The man can barely construct an unscripted sentence. His first act in office was to dispense with written briefings yet we are to believe his intelligence puts him in the top 10% of the population.

J70 maybe you would like to demonstrate examples of some of this latent intelligence given that youtube is full of evidence to the contrary? Why is that?

[J70]

if this was Fox News presenting a view favourable to Bush you'd be screaming propaganda (the comparison to the Holocaust is a nice touch)!

Let me guess, Fox is a quality news organisation that presents a balanced view of world affairs? 

It is impossible for the internets junkies to decide accurately what is true and what is not.

However I'd say a lot those not overdosed with Neo-Con propaganda, will rightly or wrongly, come down on the side furthest away from the likes of Fox.

As for Bush's I.Q none of the articles in his defence mention his alcoholism and the damage that likely to have been done as a result. They are all based on results achived in his youth. The man can barely construct an unscripted sentence. His first act in office was to dispense with written briefings yet we are to believe his intelligence puts him in the top 10% of the population.

J70 maybe you would like to demonstrate examples of some of this latent intelligence given that youtube is full of evidence to the contrary? Why is that?

I've already given my opinion of Fox News. I was merely pointing out, if it wasn't obvious, that people would dismiss a report such as the Russia Today one as propaganda also if it didn't suit their agenda or interpretation.

As to Bush's intelligence, the myth about his IQ of 91 has been shown to be a hoax. Given that, the burden of proving that he has a low IQ is on those making the assertion. And for the third time on this thread, everyone acknowledges that he is a lousy public speaker. I'm a lousy public speaker myself, but that doesn't mean I have a low IQ.

[Yes I Would]

Think Bush actually speaks very well for someone who has often just been given a speach, and has taken no part in its preparation.

Its the fact that he allows himself to be such a puppet which sets him apart as a complete buffoon.

[muppet]

if this was Fox News presenting a view favourable to Bush you'd be screaming propaganda (the comparison to the Holocaust is a nice touch)!

Let me guess, Fox is a quality news organisation that presents a balanced view of world affairs? 

It is impossible for the internets junkies to decide accurately what is true and what is not.

However I'd say a lot those not overdosed with Neo-Con propaganda, will rightly or wrongly, come down on the side furthest away from the likes of Fox.

As for Bush's I.Q none of the articles in his defence mention his alcoholism and the damage that likely to have been done as a result. They are all based on results achived in his youth. The man can barely construct an unscripted sentence. His first act in office was to dispense with written briefings yet we are to believe his intelligence puts him in the top 10% of the population.

J70 maybe you would like to demonstrate examples of some of this latent intelligence given that youtube is full of evidence to the contrary? Why is that?

I've already given my opinion of Fox News. I was merely pointing out, if it wasn't obvious, that people would dismiss a report such as the Russia Today one as propaganda also if it didn't suit their agenda or interpretation.

As to Bush's intelligence, the myth about his IQ of 91 has been shown to be a hoax. Given that, the burden of proving that he has a low IQ is on those making the assertion. And for the third time on this thread, everyone acknowledges that he is a lousy public speaker. I'm a lousy public speaker myself, but that doesn't mean I have a low IQ.

I am also a lousy public speaker, but I can read from a script. An average IQ by definition is 100. At that IQ you are expected, among other things, to be able to read for your age, i.e a 16 y/o should have reading age of 16. Purely by observation Dubya's reading age appears to be something that is not quite what it should be. Therefore one could reasonably assume a number below 100.  

You accuse people who attack the foreign policy of the USA as having some sort of agenda. Not only that but you lump them in with anyone who thinks Dubya is not the brightest.

The only relevent agenda is U.S. foreign policy. The vast majority of those outside the USA are appalled at their behaviour over the last 5 years as is a growing number of those inside the USA.

Read Fiasco by Thomas E. Ricks, so far the Neo-Con spin doctors have failed to get much mud to stick on the former Pulitzer prize winner. On the contrary, the only Generals he acclaims have since been put in command, notably Patraeus. While the book shows up this administration for the absolute cowboys that they are, it also restores faith in some of those behind the scenes.

The book has a lot of discussion on the policies and the policy authors, George Dubya rarely features. I wonder why.

[J70]

I am also a lousy public speaker, but I can read from a script. An average IQ by definition is 100. At that IQ you are expected, among other things, to be able to read for your age, i.e a 16 y/o should have reading age of 16. Purely by observation Dubya's reading age appears to be something that is not quite what it should be. Therefore one could reasonably assume a number below 100.  

If you believe that, fine. I don't, and as I said previously on this thread, there is more than enough material to hold against Bush than resorting to (in my opinion) irrelevent distractions like his IQ.

You accuse people who attack the foreign policy of the USA as having some sort of agenda. Not only that but you lump them in with anyone who thinks Dubya is not the brightest.

And maybe you should read the thread before putting words in my mouth.

I have been responding to Seamus, who claims with apparent certainty that anyone who doesn't fall in with his version of what happened in Georgia is falling for propaganda. I am perfectly within my right to question the veracity of the sources he has presented to make his case and to point out what appear to me to be possible double standards.

The only relevent agenda is U.S. foreign policy. The vast majority of those outside the USA are appalled at their behaviour over the last 5 years as is a growing number of those inside the USA.

Read Fiasco by Thomas E. Ricks, so far the Neo-Con spin doctors have failed to get much mud to stick on the former Pulitzer prize winner. On the contrary, the only Generals he acclaims have since been put in command, notably Patraeus. While the book shows up this administration for the absolute cowboys that they are, it also restores faith in some of those behind the scenes.

The book has a lot of discussion on the policies and the policy authors, George Dubya rarely features. I wonder why.

Thanks for the book recommendation.

[Seamus]

Its the fact that he allows himself to be such a puppet which sets him apart as a complete buffoon.

Yeah, and a very willing puppet he is too. All Presidents are puppets, JFK was one of the few that did not tow the line and we all know what happened to him.

A must read is The Prosecution of George W Bush for Murder by Vincent Bugliosi, a top notch prosecutor. In the book he has documented facts that would hold up in any court of law. Immunity and the vacating of office will not save Bush. Other heads will also roll.  Bush should be in jail wearing orange being another guy's girlfriend. Watch the related video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q53p34yzZac&feature=related

[Seamus]

J70, I never said that minority beliefs are incorrect. You stated that I was the only person on this board that can see through the propaganda, that incorrect statement is what I was counteracting.  I am well used to being in the minority as I have to deal with people that seem to believe everything they see and hear from main stream media, people that are caught up in the diversions of the Britney Spears and Joey Buttafuocos of this world along with reality TV shows.

My source is not Russia Today, I happen to know that the Russian media is just as corrupt as the US if not more so. This time they did not have to lie as it coincided with my research so no double standards here. Sky ran the same video with no sound so as not to broadcast the South Ossetia ascents and dialect. You should know by now that I look towards alternative media that do not have an agenda other than seeking the truth. When I give you links to those sites you scream loonies, conspiracy theorists. I can't win no matter what. I have met a good number of the site owners and can vow for their integrity. I am active in the field for justice and the fight to bring back the Constitution. I hope to give way more of my time in the future. You will find me in the Protest Free Zones fighting for your rights.

The Russian girl with the comment on the FOX interview did blame Russia as well along with other govs, her statement is on the money no matter what part of the cosmos she hails from.

Regarding your question about Afghanistan, that was the spin we were given alright, but the US invaded them for their resources just as they did later with Iraq.

[J70]

J70, I never said that minority beliefs are incorrect. You stated that I was the only person on this board that can see through the propaganda, that incorrect statement is what I was counteracting.  I am well used to being in the minority as I have to deal with people that seem to believe everything they see and hear from main stream media, people that are caught up in the diversions of the Britney Spears and Joey Buttafuocos of this world along with reality TV shows.

My source is not Russia Today, I happen to know that the Russian media is just as corrupt as the US if not more so. This time they did not have to lie as it coincided with my research so no double standards here. Sky ran the same video with no sound so as not to broadcast the South Ossetia ascents and dialect. You should know by now that I look towards alternative media that do not have an agenda other than seeking the truth. When I give you links to those sites you scream loonies, conspiracy theorists. I can't win no matter what. I have met a good number of the site owners and can vow for their integrity. I am active in the field for justice and the fight to bring back the Constitution. I hope to give way more of my time in the future. You will find me in the Protest Free Zones fighting for your rights.

The Russian girl with the comment on the FOX interview did blame Russia as well along with other govs, her statement is on the money no matter what part of the cosmos she hails from.

Regarding your question about Afghanistan, that was the spin we were given alright, but the US invaded them for their resources just as they did later with Iraq.

Perhaps I am harsh on you, but I have no way of verifying anything you (or the news networks) say and you did post Russia Today as a supporting source. But my position is still that I do not know who to believe - the NY Times ran a piece by Gorbachev today blaming the Georgians and attacking the treatment Russia has received from the US and Britain since the end of the cold war, saying they've treated Russia all along as someone who is a constant, imminent threat rather than as a partner (Thomas Friedman has a similar piece alongside it, although he also went after Putin and the Georgian president). Its dizzying to be perfectly honest, trying to sift through all of the competing theories. If your contacts and work (which sounds very creditable) brings you clarity, good for you, but you presumably understand that anything posted on a site like this (or any other) has to be treated with skepticism.

[DrinkingHarp]

 I am still wondering how he (Seamus) came up with 2,000 US mercenaries and how did they get there right when this conflict started?

[Seamus]

They were there long before the conflict started along with Blackwater and Israeli forces training the Georgians. Try doing your own research, it would be good for you. Start by researching the characters in the Georgian government, how they got there and go from there. You will find that their President was educated in the US, groomed to be a puppet, other findings may amaze you. You will appreciate it more if you do the work yourself.

J70, I commend you for seeking the truth but you are focussing you energy too much on finding holes in my efforts. Instead hold your government and media to task, it's not hard as they lie to us 95% of the time. Governments should fear the people not the other way around as it is today.

[hitzelsperger]

Heard from a Polish fella that alot of their lads are heading back to Poland so rejoin the army in fear that Russia will try attacking them!