Ulster Final 2008 - Armagh vs Fermanagh

[orangeman]

How is Mc Conville's fitness ? I thought it was very telling that Stevie continued to take a free even when Mc Conville came on !

[FromAFar]

Ulster all stars??

             R Gallagher
A Mallon     Bellew     K McGuckin

T McElroy R McCluskey C McKeever

     M McGrath D Gordon

E Maguire S Kiernan S Cavanagh

S McDonnell R Clarke S Johnston

Definitely a few very debatable positions here

[Goats Do Shave]

Having settled myself a bit after Sunday's initial assessment, I doubt there'll be too many changes to the Armagh side.  I reckon he may try and fit Donaghy in there somewhere and if he was going to do that it would be a HF that would lose out, therefore playing Donaghy at CHB giving us a far greater mobility while letting AOR sweep/roam.  Something like

Hearty
Mallon, Bellew, F Mo
AOR
AK, Donaghy, CMcK
Toner, McGrane
Vernon/Mallon/PMcK, SK, MOR
Clarke McDonnell

benny would agree wit you on the part than donaghy should start i would love to see the following line out

Hearty, A Mallon, Franco, Fin Mo, Donaghy, AOR, C Mckeever, McGrane, Toner, A kernan, MOR, B Mallon, Stevie, Clarke, S kernan

but i would leave aaron playin a more orthadox half forward role an bring stephen out to operate round the middle...

Aaron Kernan would be lost in the half forward line. The reason he looks good on the ball is he's given space, space that is presented from playing in defence! - He was denied space in the second half on Sunday & thus had an off day! I don't think he, Vernon or anyone else will be as casual coming out of defence the next day!

[open her out]

Possibly but Brendan Donaghy will offer us more defensive cover. Fermanaghs ploy sunday of putting little on aaron to expose his definsive weaknesses wroked well for them. I think aaron has enough ability to excell in the half forward line,

                                Mcgrane Toner
                  AK                                        SK
                                 MOR
                                           Mallon/Mckeever

                               Mcdonnell Clarke

i cant see any weakness in playing a formation like that against fermanagh. Im not totally convinced on Charlie making an impact at inter county level...

[D4S]

Ulster all stars??

             R Gallagher
A Mallon     Bellew     K McGuckin

T McElroy R McCluskey C McKeever

     M McGrath D Gordon

E Maguire S Kiernan S Cavanagh

S McDonnell R Clarke S Johnston

Definitely a few very debatable positions here

Cavanagh played 2games in ulster championship against us, in the 2nd he was totally ineffective.  I'd take him out of the eqaution and replace him with Ryan Keenan.  I know Keenan's frees on sunday were woeful but his workrate is immense, and against monaghan and derry he was exellent

[scud]

              R Gallagher

A Mallon     Bellew     L Howard

T McElroy R McCluskey A O'Rourke

     M McGrath D Gordon

C McElroy   S Kernan  M Little

S McDonnell R Clarke E Maguire

[mackers]

Possibly but Brendan Donaghy will offer us more defensive cover. Fermanaghs ploy sunday of putting little on aaron to expose his definsive weaknesses wroked well for them. I think aaron has enough ability to excell in the half forward line,

                                Mcgrane Toner
                  AK                                        SK
                                 MOR
                                           Mallon/Mckeever

                               Mcdonnell Clarke

i cant see any weakness in playing a formation like that against fermanagh. Im not totally convinced on Charlie making an impact at inter county level...

There's a few boys on here being a bit harsh on Vernon, FFS lads, it was his third appearance in championship football. Yes, he has been poor at times in all three matches and if he was dropped for Sunday I wouldn't be that surprised but saying that he may not make an impact on intercounty football at all is OTT. I think his point against Cavan has shown a glimpse of his potential as he has done that at college, inter county underage and club football repeatedly.

let nothing go

Does that include square balls?

and lets hope he knows when the difference between a throw ball and a proper fisted pass

Ferm, I presume you're talking about the free given against Little in the dying minutes. It was clearly a legitimate hand pass but he took a mad dive and in my mind anyway deserved nothing (at the time I presumed the ref gave the free out for the dive).

[feetofflames]

I have a feeling its going to take a 2nd replay after this weekend.  I just dont think either side is yet good enough to represent Ulster in the last 8. 

[Onion Bag]

How is Mc Conville's fitness ? I thought it was very telling that Stevie continued to take a free even when Mc Conville came on !

Mc Conville looked stiff and unfit, But he did make an attempt at a free kick and missed it, you must have forgot about that one Orangeman,

[FromAFar]

              R Gallagher

A Mallon     Bellew     L Howard

T McElroy R McCluskey A O'Rourke

     M McGrath D Gordon

C McElroy   S Kernan  M Little

S McDonnell R Clarke E Maguire

CB is a very open choice, in my opinion noone stands out for the position. Im wary of bein to pro fermanagh but i feel that s goan has to be in with a shot here, he was excellent against Derry (PBradley) & also against Monaghan (T Freeman). Ok his man scored 4pts from play on sunday but would many others hav stopped mcdonnell in that form?

I also think that its hard to leave out s johnston, 8pts against antrim and 6 pts against armagh is enough in my opinion.

Eamon's a good bet for one but i think only one of keenan, little & mcElroy can be considered.

[open her out]

Martin orourke is probably out of contention due to his red card against down but it showed on Sunday when he went off how important he is to Armagh. He would be an automatic starter on most teams in Ireland.

[Onion Bag]

Why would MOR be out of contention when he started the last day, what do you mean

[Skiddybadoo]

Any chance we could see three Kernans starting.  I think Tony is a great little player.  Good vision, can see and deliver an accurate pass and can bomb over from long range as well as being a very decent free-taker.  He's a brave lad who'll give his all.  I have heard people say that he doesn't see a lot of the ball.  I think his movement creates a lot of space for the front two and he tracks back hard (the way we seem to play, and I don't think we'll vary too much from that this Sunday).  

As Mackers as said, it's not rocket science.  If we have more bodies around the middle anticipating breaks and actually there to win them we'll have much more possession.  We sat back waiting for Fermanagh to come to us, causing us to panic. While Owens made a nuisance of himself, that's all he did.  I don't think Francie would have too many sleepless nights about facing him; he'smarked better full forwards than Owens and bettered them.  Owens is a super footballer, and I'd prefer to see him up front (where I think he could be contained) rather than playing at the back where he'd be better at snuffing the threat of Clarke and give the Ferm backline a platform.  Perhaps he's not yet fit to play in the backline.

Also, it has been mentioned before, but why did we continually fire balls straight down the middle.  If we are not getting 50% then pull Vernon (if he keeps his place) out to the the sideline and hit him - at the very least vary it.

My team:

             Hearty (Just.  I do think Owens could start and that means a lot of high balls. McKinney may not have the height).
Andy     Francine     Finn Mo (done nothing wrong)    
CMcKeever   AoR       AK
   McGrane  / Toner
MOR   B Mallon  Donaghy
McDonnell  Clarke  T Kernan

I'd start Tony ahead of Stephen.  Although McDonnell will prob start Stephen, I'd xpect him to have a very good game despite my wish to see Jr start.
Donaghy is an excellent reader of the game and I think if he's be ore effective sitting back alongside AoR while taking responsibility from B Mallon,allowing him to provide a constant half forward link.

It's really easy, isn't it.

[FermGael]

Ferm, I presume you're talking about the free given against Little in the dying minutes. It was clearly a legitimate hand pass but he took a mad dive and in my mind anyway deserved nothing (at the time I presumed the ref gave the free out for the dive).

That would be the one.  The free was definitely given for a throw ball

[Uladh]

Its very easy from an armagh point of view to throw the baby out with the bath water. certainly armagh quit playing with 20/25 minutes to go and allowed fermanagh back into the game, but they controlled comfortably til that point.

I'd suggest that the majority of armagh's work this week needs to be done in their heads. i hope the quest for redemption after letting things slip from their grasp last week would bring a heightened aggression and intensity to their game and i fully expect a strong reaction. Fermanagh had no answers to a focussed and aggressive armagh in the first 45 minutes on sunday and that focus needs to be stretched over the full game.

Personally i believe the double substitution, bringing on McKeever and McConville nack fired for two reasons. first, it appeared to be based in sentimentality and when fermanagh inevitibly drove from their half back line, neither had the legs to track their men. secondly, the very action of making the changes sent out the message that management believed the ame was wrapped up and those on the pitch took the foot off the gas - however subconsciously that decision may have been taken.

although there were quite a few below par showings, i feel these fellas deserve the chance to rectify their own performances. i'd name the same team but have lads on very short leash. Donaghy must be very very close but ak is a fine footballer and can increase his contribution 10 fold. the same applies to vernon, mcgrane, sk, right down the line.

A few things glaringly need addressed though. why o why do our backs insist on carrying the ball? fermanagh are busy dropping back as our lads toe tap for the cameras. we have the most devastating inside pairing in the game and we completely starved them of the ball until fermanagh had swamped them with bodies. that McDonnell kicked 5 points from play with that sort of traffic around him is astounding. also, the tactic of sitting aor back at kick outs is flawed. his man won tons of break ball and he has to be marked for kick outs. from open play aor has done and did a great job but we are gifting fermanagh an exrta body in there for winning the breaks.

lastly, I'm a bit perplexed on what Vernon's role is. i'm not sure if he's meant to be a third midifelder or a half forward? if he's midfielder then fair enough but lets see him competing for ball and linking play as well as tracking and tackling. if he's a half forward then we need to see him getting forward to support. he did very little of either role sunday and maybe the lad himself is confused?

all in all it was a bad day at the office for management and players but the manner of the collapse and the fal out since could well be the catalyst for them to kick on.