Armagh v Down- 29th June-Ulster Semi Final Thread

[tyroneman]

Excellent. Truly excellent.

Can't say anything intelligent, take the playschool route.

[corn02]

Coming from the man who posts they are not contenders and then expects them to get to the semi?

[Uladh]

tyroneman - if you have a point to make, though i don't know what it is, do so with coherant and relevent arguments. discounting armagh's chances of challenging for sam in 2008 because "they came last in the 2003 all ireland final" illustrates perfectly your level of intellect. ridiculous points like that are as irrelevent as armagh men claiming to be better than tyrone because they comfortably despatched the team that beat them.

[ric flair]

reading one of the last posts that sugested armagh would not beat any of the big teams........... apart from kerry who would be classed as a big team that armagh should fear?

serious strength an depth in this armagh panel............ players that came in yday slotted in seemlessly and all played their part.............. trainin will no doubt be hot and heavy for next 3 weeks

yesterday proved that in ronan clarke and stephen kernan armagh have two of the most precosious talents in the country............. clarkes ball winning and shot selection allied to kernans incredible level of technique will continue to undo defenses well into the summer.

ur 5 AI didn win u the match yesterday boys!!!!!!!

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

The way I saw it was that O'Rourke made a legitimate and admirable effort to block the pass, jumping a huge height, but failing to reach the ball. Now he's airborne. How is he supposed to change direction in mid-air? He's not fitted with ailerons and a rudder. He goes where his momentum takes him, which happens to be straight into the player who's wide open after delivering the pass. If he had done anything to make the impact worse, he'd have deserved the card, but he didn't move hand, arm, elbow, boot or leg. He just crashed into Rafferty and hurt him. He was as likely to hurt himself. I could see no evidence of intent.

That was my take on the incident Hardy. Was Marty O'Rourke given a "straight" yellow or was he ticked as well in the first half. If so, a tick to follow the yellow card as a final warning could have sufficed.

We did enough yesterday, nothing more nothing less. Down were very poor. They had an extra man and a stranglehold at midfield in the second half and still didn't look like scoring much apart from the frees the ref was going to give them (many of which I felt were very debatable). Thought Down were very negative tactically with the extra man by placing him deep in the full back line when Down needed to get a few scores to get into the game.

Thought Ciaran had a great game yesterday. Excellent marking display. Our main problems were around the centre from after the goal. I thought Dan Gordon was well on top of McGrane whose lack of mobility was an issue I felt. None of the half forward line finished the game and that's something to worry about. I didn't think Paddy McKeever had a great game, Brian Mallon was much more effective when he came on. Aidan Carr caused Charlie Vernon a lot of problems I felt.

We didn't play particularly well but at least we got the win. Clarke was superb, McDonnell worked very hard and Stephen Kernan also played very well. Fermanagh are going to be a very difficult proposition but at least they shouldn't pose any surprises at this stage. We were victims of their big day in the Sun in 2004 so hopefully it'll be another side they win their first Ulster final again!

Had to grin hearing some of the Down crowd shouting for Fermanagh within half an hour of the final whistle.

[tyroneman]

Don't expect them to get to the semi, more the QF in all honesty.

But - it's a possibility though that with a win over Fermanagh and with a handy draw the SF could be on. It's the potential ability to get beyond that - into and winning the final that marks contenders out - and I cannot see Armagh doing that this year.

I think they will restrict most teams in scoring against them but do not have the nous at CHF (S Kernan needs another year or 2 championship football against Dublin / Kerry etc) or a free enough scoring forward unit that will do sufficient damage at the hard end of things.

Armagh traditionally get way too cocky after a couple of wins, it would do them more good to adopt the cute hoorism of Kerry rather than the chest beating routine normally employed.

We in Tyrone bought into the conveyor belt myth created by the pundits and press alike since 2003 and it's only now that we are catching on it's exactly that - a myth. We'll trouble a good team somewhere along the way but won't be booking any hotels come September. Ulster dominance is not all it's cracked up to be

[Uladh]

Don't expect them to get to the semi, more the QF in all honesty.

But - it's a possibility though that with a win over Fermanagh and with a handy draw the SF could be on. It's the potential ability to get beyond that - into and winning the final that marks contenders out - and I cannot see Armagh doing that this year.

Yes, we got that. now, as a discussion board we'd be eternally grateful for your reasoning.

[tyroneman]

tyroneman - if you have a point to make, though i don't know what it is, do so with coherant and relevent arguments. discounting armagh's chances of challenging for sam in 2008 because "they came last in the 2003 all ireland final" illustrates perfectly your level of intellect. ridiculous points like that are as irrelevent as armagh men claiming to be better than tyrone because they comfortably despatched the team that beat them.

Maybe Uladh if you took the time to read in context, rather than lecture me on "coherant" argumnents, you would see the point I was actually making was that since 2003 Armagh have not appeared in an AI final. That's a long enough gap for a team, containing many of the same players, that are supposedly contenders in 2008.

Since 2003 they have been in 1 AI semi final, which they lost. They lost both games last year and have beaten Cavan and Down this year - neither team work beaters. Can you please tell me what marks them out as serious contenders on that basis?

Yes, we got that. now, as a discussion board we'd be eternally grateful for your reasoning.

Again, if you take the time to read, I already gave you my reasoning - they don't have a good enough forward unit.

[corn02]

So if narrowly losing to two Ulster teams last year makes them non-contenders, surely beating two Ulster teams makes them contenders on your basis?

[Uladh]

the point I was actually making was that since 2003 Armagh have not appeared in an AI final. That's a long enough gap for a team, containing many of the same players, that are supposedly contenders in 2008.

How many of this team played in 2003?

Can you please tell me what marks them out as serious contenders on that basis?

certainly i never claimed they were anything of the sort so its for those who did to justify it.

It does occur to me that you have gone a very long way out of your way, and onto an armagh thread, to make sure we all know that you think armagh won't win the all ireland. great to see the oul tyrone jealousy is alive and well whenever their confidence has gone.

[Armamike]

My own tuppence worth -

Surprised by how poor Down were in the first 20 minutes especially. How in the name of allah did Armagh not finish the game off at this point?  Where was the Down confidence from the Tyrone win?  But Armagh always make it hard for themselves - it's been the same story since 1999.

Thought Clarke was the difference between the sides. Others did well, eg. Stephen Kernan, Ciaran McKeever, Charlie Vernon first half. Brendan Donaghy settled well on the wing. A very composed and athletic player, and a good ball player.  He was harshly booked early on and i hope this is the only reason he was eventually subbed.

Over the past 2 games there have been positives and negatives for Armagh.

Positives: Under new management there was always the question whether Armagh would have the same organisation, drive and pure stubbornness that has characterised them since 1999.  All of that still seems to be there and it's a very strong foundation to build on.  Clarke seems to be taking up where he left off in 2006 and is virtually unmarkable.  Other players, esp. Stephen Kernan are taking some of the scoring pressure off himself and McDonnell.  The likes of Vernon and Toner are adding more to the team this year.  There's a bit more variety to Armagh's play now- the direct kick into the 2 forwards is mixed a bit with the strong running of the likes of Vernon.  The subs that came on did well and got us over the line. The subs bench looks better this year than it's been for a while.

Negatives: yesterday showed when Martin O'Rourke isn't there we struggle badly to win any breaking ball around the middle. This needs to be addressed.  The final score tallies have been quite good, but some good possession has been wasted by overcomplicated play, wrong final pass, or wasteful shooting (similar in may ways to McDonnell's under 21 team of 2 years back).  Could do with getting the ball in quicker at times to the 2 forwards - esp. yesterday when Clarke was winning everything at a canter -why hold it up? Lost the midfield battle after 20/25 mins yesterday.  Maybe the management need to take a serious look now at whether McGrane can last the 70 minutes against a decent midfield?  To be fair though, Down possibly have the best midfield(er) in the country at the minute.  Too many frees are being conceded. I could see Fermanagh winning a load of frees in the final.

Overall, a solid if unspectacular performance by Armagh with some good elements and some bad - but not bad considering playing half the game with 14 men.  Another step up in performance is needed to beat Fermanagh though and progress further this year, but i'd be hopeful that there's more in reserve.  




 
 

[mackers]

Agree with a lot that has been said by the Armagh posters here, concerns over the midfield sector throughout the league resurfaced yesterday. Gordon always seemed to be in position for the catch before McGrane and therefore left McGrane jumping behind him. MOR getting sent off left us with our main breaking ball winner on the line and it could've cost us the match. I have sung his praises quite a bit on the board but yesterday he showed all his negative points. Like Goats I noticed that Brian Mallon was ready to come on presumably for MOR as it was obvious that the red mist had descended and it was only a matter of time before he was sent off. Benny O'Kane was constantly running over to him to try to settle him.
Thought that Aidan started off poorly but as the game went on he became very influential. Charlie Vernon started off like a house on fire but several big hits took it out of him and eventually he blew a gasket. Yes, he does make a few mistakes but Jaysus lads it was his second championship match, he's still settling in, give him time, bit like Stephen Kernan who's just now starting to show what a good player he is.
Ronan Clarke was awesome and as somebody else said he is the best full forward in Ireland (and that includes Kieran Donaghy).
Ciaran McKeever had a great game and showed that he can play as well as a defensive stopper as he can as an attacking wing back, he really has it all. See the Irish News and a few posters on here calling him cynical but him and Coulter were at it all the way through the match.
I am concerned about the Fermanagh match as they will run at us in the same way as Down did and we need to be more disciplined in our tackling, haven't got a chance to watch the rerun but it felt at the time that McQuillan gave a lot of soft frees. We may face the same scenario in the final.

Of course he is! I mean playing well against Cavan and Down is the same as being undoubtedly the best FF in 2 Championship seasons whilst winning the AI in both!

What are you talking about? I think that Ronan Clarke has done a bit more that play well against Cavan and Down in his career!! Try out playing Seamus Moynihan in an AI final when he was 19, won us an Ulster title in 2006 virtually single handedly. Ask Armagh supporters whether they would swap Clarke for Donaghy and the majority would give you the same answer. No f**king chance!! Is it a coincidence that he was absent in our worst championship year for a decade? Would Donaghy have scored that point into the wind in the first half?

[Tyrones own]

dodgy umpire's point was that if a man is fouled he deserves a free, I was annoyed at the decision in Newry at the end of normal time when a free was awarded against paul mccumiskey when it really wasn't a free...check out this video of the match on you tube especially at about 1:58 it will show you exactly why I and many other Down supporters were annoyed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32oyPdlSfIQ

Was wondering does that link show the point that was clearly wide in the 2nd half
against Tyrone, even the down lads around me were wondering why it was given,
were you as annoyed with anyone over that? swings and roundabouts my dear....

[Goats Do Shave]

Can you please tell me what marks them out as serious contenders on that basis?

Who do you reckon are the contenders then?

Kerry, Mayo, Cork & Tyrone? (Going on previous finals??)

I'd be happy with Armagh's chances against 3 of those teams! 

[Uladh]

Generally happy with the result but you still get the feeling there's a bit in the tank. difficult making proper assessments from watching on tv but any day we beat down is a good day's work.

it was pleasing that when the areas of the team that had functioned well against cavan dodn't against down others stepped up. The half back line had been generally poor against cavan but mckeever and o'rourke were excellent in their own way on sunday.

There are obviously worries after every game but generally the team is progressing well. the energy, movement and triple blanket defence that fermanagh will throw up is another puzzle that Peter McDonnell will have to solve but i think Armagh have the ability to beat them.