Áth Cliath vs Iarmhí

[The Voice Of Reason]

Why did Glennon pop the last free over the bar? I would've thought Flanagan or someone would've had a pop at goal given the time...

I was dumbfounded by that decision.

I think that was the right decision as there was still another minute of play left. You're more likely to score a goal by winning the kickout and working it in quickly, rather than hoping to score a 13 metre free with 6 Dublin men on the line.


Generally I think the media have been incredibly hard on Dublin. They're just over analysed. Westmeath are a top team, and Dublin kept their heads cool in the last 10 minutes. The Dublin team are training to peak at the end of August, it's unrealistic for a team to be in peak from June unto September. I just think that their own fans will never be happy unto they hold Kerry scoreless and score 5-20 ... and all counties have fans like that ... but the media are now spouting the same stuff.

[INDIANA]

i've never bought into that team peaking crack. I always feel that was an anachronism put around by Jack O Connor. The reality is for all their peaking they were within an asses roar of being beaten by Limerick previously and Monaghan last season. The reality is kerry underperformed both days. I believe personally that teams use the peaking late idea as an excuse for poor early performances. You never hear Kilkenny talk about peaking. They simply try to win all competitions and don't use this tired old excuse for poor performances, Cody will simply say they underperformed.

[AZOffaly]

I don't agree completely with that Indiana, and I find I've been agreeing with you all the time this past while, which was worrying me There is definitely a method to 'peaking' at the right time, you want to be in your peak physical condition around August and September, which means you will tailor training plans and preparation accordingly. Especially with the backdoor system, teams are somewhat willing to take a small chance, especially if they are relatively confident they can progress at 80-85%.

Kilkenny are a different animal in Croke Park in September than they are in Portlaoise in June, you can be sure of that. Likewise Kerry are still operating on medium burn up until July at the earliest.

However, where I will agree with you is that this 'peaking' is totally related to physical and mental conditioning. Skills, nous or glaring positional weaknesses that are there, or not there, in June are unlikely to be fixed in September, the odd Donaghy type fluke excepted. That's where Dublin's problems could be. Teams improve by playing games, but you still can't make lads do something they are not able to do.

[AN other]

Devastating stuff. I think Dublin can count themselves pretty lucky to have got a result out of this one and the analysis by the media since is both unfair on Dublin and disrespectful to Westmeath. Westmeath have shown that whatever the teams look like on paper they are as good a team as Dublin at present and if they were wearing navy and blue with a hill full of supporters behind them they'd be considered just as likely to win the all-ireland as the 20 that played for Dublin yesterday. I'm not suggesting for a minute that Westmeath will come close to winning an all-ireland in the immediate future but the constant disrespect shown to Westmeath by some of the general public and the majority of the media is increasingly hard to take.
Anyway, on the match itself. I think that there was two things that eventually swung the game in the Dubs favour, neither of which was addressed by the two groups of Einstein's on TV3 or RTÉ. The first one was Dermott Bannon's injury (I hope it's not a collar bone and he wil be back soon). He was man of the match against Dublin in Navan and early on was showing well and winning very good ball in the full forward line, his presence in there for longer would have been worth a point or two to us. Mangan as his replacement was disappointing yet again, I fear his county days could well be coming to an end.
The other thing was Dublin's use of Ciarán Whelan as a blood sub. It was akin to a game of basketball with the rotation of Ryan and Whelan from bench to pitch, you can't fault Dublin too much because they (strictly speaking) didn't break any rules and it was the ref who dictated the substitutions take place but it certainly abused the rule and it was a big advantage to have two pretty fresh midfielders coming into the last twenty minutes. Dublin won midfield convincingly for the first time in the game in the closing 20 minutes or so and Ryan and Whelan both caused problems winning ball and running at Westmeath and I think this had most to do with Westmeath's "wilting defence" as pointed out by Bernard Flynn, ball was coming at the Westmeath defence alot more regularly in that period. I think the rotation of Ryan and Whelan keeping both pretty fresh had a telling contribution to this. I counted the second substitution and it amounted to over 14 minutes not including the whole of half time! There didn't seem to be much evidence of blood on Ryan and certainly not anything that looked like it could take that length of time to clear up. It was a clear tactical ploy and this should not be allowed to happen.
Obviously Westmeath didn't help their case by missing easy frees and taking the wrong option more than a couple of times, but this was pretty much canceled out by similar play from Dublin. (Opposition have consistenly performed poorly against Westmeath this year and some pundit might eventually put two and two together and realise alot of this boils down to Westmeath's intensity.) Duffy was disappointing and he has much more ability than he showed, I hope this was just a temporary blip. O'Donoghue's distribution was excellent again (not least for the goal) for most of the game and he won some decent ball. John Keane aside Doran Harte was Westmeath's best player in my opinion, the amount of work he got through was immense and I can't recall him putting a foot wrong all day. Glennon delivered, he should have converteted that chance in the closing stages but I think he was right to take his point from the free and he showed well from play all day. I think his move out the field was a good one at the time and I'd have swapped himself and Dolan for a bit longer myself. If the ref had played the half minute that Cluxton had wasted kicking the ball out from the last free we could have nicked a goal.
I thought taking John Smith off was a mistake, he was getting through the work all day and was picking up breaking ball consistently, something which Westmeath didn't do after he was taken off. I'd have brought Flanagan on but taken Buddah off at that stage. Flanagan wasn't up to the pace of the game at all unfortunately. Without completely forgetting about this year if we can keep the stalwarts like Healy and Flanagan performing for another year, keep the hunger and workrate up, get Connellan back and give Bannon another year I'd be confident we could win Leinster next year with a fully fit team. Indeed I'd be confident we would have won yesterday with a fully fit team for the 70 minutes.
As for this year, Tomás put it well, "We're not finished yet."

Iarmhí Abú.

[INDIANA]

i think  a team AZ at inter county level, requires a consistent level of improving performance throughout the year. I think teams get fitter the more games they play, and obviously because their season is lasting longer. So they should be automatically be performing better in September than June. This peaking idea is a phrase coined by gurus to make them look like Einstein when a couple of narrow escapes early on was part of some sort of long-term plan, when the reality is a puff of wind, or a refeereeing decision had more influence on a teams progress, rather than "peaking".

[DUBSFORSAM1]

they didn't in my view because we didn't perform. we're in complete disarray in the full back line and half forward lines. i think your synopsis prior to the game would have been fine had we played well but we didn't unfortunately . i know Dublin fans are pinning their hopes on the last 8 where the team will suddenly start performing. In my view we've more problems than we had this time last year.  So the management have some work to do.

I don't think we were in disarry in the fullback line at all - McConnell struggled for 20 mins or so but when a full forward like Glennon is getting quality ball most backs will struggle....after the 1-4 we conceeded in the first 20 mins we held them to 4 points in last 50 mins....Shocko and Henry had good games....

Half forward line struggled after Brogan went off who was playing very well and Flynn had a poor game.....

We obviously missed the movement of Ryan through injury which didn't help.....

Yet we still scored 0-13 against statistically the best defence in Ireland while playing badly and missing countless chances.......The match was in the balance with 10 mins left when everyone said if this was the case we would be vulnerable and yet guys like Moran/Cahill/Jayo etc all stood up and took their chances....these games are far more beneficial to us than any other type...

What extra problems do we have compared to last year???

[INDIANA]

you're entitled to your opinion but in my view we have more issues than last year, there is more scope to improve certain areas than others, and some areas unfortunately are threadbare.. If you want to airbrush them thats your entitlement.

[joemamas]

joemamas



     Re: Áth Cliath vs Iarmhí
« Reply #171 on: June 30, 2008, 12:14:28 AM »     

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Dont mean to start something negative, however, I could not but notice the trash talking close to end of the game when westmeath got a free in from about 21 meters out. Collie Moran the main perpertrator this go round, got right in the face of the westmeath freetaker,and he in my mind the worst Dublin player on the time by a longshot, a player incidently that management seem to be bending over backwards to facilitate. Keep your ffnn mouth shut and get on with the game. Jesus as much as I would like to see Dublin win something , that sort of shit talk bothers the hell out of me. Could you ever in your wildest drunkeness envision Tomas Or Dara O Shea doing something like that.

Maybe, that is one of the reasons they are successful and Collie Moran and Co. are not. Just as a sidebar what do some of these mouthpieces work at, do they have to deal with the general public, or are they locked in an office all day.

Apologies for going on too long. Rant over. 





Hound



    Re: Áth Cliath vs Iarmhí
« Reply #172 on: June 30, 2008, 08:38:52 AM »   

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Yes, I hate that too. Though I'm pretty sure you picked out the wrong Dublin half back as the perpetrator. For what its worth, you could not meet a nicer guy off the field than Collie Moran.

The Kerry lads are well able for the thrash talk, including the O'Se's. But the Dubs lads who do it are too thick to do it subtlely.





INDIANA



     Re: Áth Cliath vs Iarmhí
« Reply #173 on: June 30, 2008, 09:04:57 AM »   

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he has picked out the wrong player, but observation wouldn't be joe's strong point. amazing you watch a match and thats all he has to say............



Indiana,


My observations were correct, while Glennon was initially fouled by Dublin no 2, Collie Moran was in fact in Glennon's face mouthing off as he tried to take a quick free. For somebody who posts quiet often, it does bring your comments into question as regards accuracy

Game was good, Dublin way more physical, seemed to earmark Dessie Dolan for some punishing tackles, which worked as he appeared to be shagged in the last quarter. It will be interesting to see what happens when they come up against a team with more than two scoring forwards.

[heffo]

Devastating stuff. I think Dublin can count themselves pretty lucky to have got a result out of this one and the analysis by the media since is both unfair on Dublin and disrespectful to Westmeath. Westmeath have shown that whatever the teams look like on paper they are as good a team as Dublin at present and if they were wearing navy and blue with a hill full of supporters behind them they'd be considered just as likely to win the all-ireland as the 20 that played for Dublin yesterday. I'm not suggesting for a minute that Westmeath will come close to winning an all-ireland in the immediate future but the constant disrespect shown to Westmeath by some of the general public and the majority of the media is increasingly hard to take.
Anyway, on the match itself. I think that there was two things that eventually swung the game in the Dubs favour, neither of which was addressed by the two groups of Einstein's on TV3 or RTÉ. The first one was Dermott Bannon's injury (I hope it's not a collar bone and he wil be back soon). He was man of the match against Dublin in Navan and early on was showing well and winning very good ball in the full forward line, his presence in there for longer would have been worth a point or two to us. Mangan as his replacement was disappointing yet again, I fear his county days could well be coming to an end.
The other thing was Dublin's use of Ciarán Whelan as a blood sub. It was akin to a game of basketball with the rotation of Ryan and Whelan from bench to pitch, you can't fault Dublin too much because they (strictly speaking) didn't break any rules and it was the ref who dictated the substitutions take place but it certainly abused the rule and it was a big advantage to have two pretty fresh midfielders coming into the last twenty minutes. Dublin won midfield convincingly for the first time in the game in the closing 20 minutes or so and Ryan and Whelan both caused problems winning ball and running at Westmeath and I think this had most to do with Westmeath's "wilting defence" as pointed out by Bernard Flynn, ball was coming at the Westmeath defence alot more regularly in that period. I think the rotation of Ryan and Whelan keeping both pretty fresh had a telling contribution to this. I counted the second substitution and it amounted to over 14 minutes not including the whole of half time! There didn't seem to be much evidence of blood on Ryan and certainly not anything that looked like it could take that length of time to clear up. It was a clear tactical ploy and this should not be allowed to happen.
Obviously Westmeath didn't help their case by missing easy frees and taking the wrong option more than a couple of times, but this was pretty much canceled out by similar play from Dublin. (Opposition have consistenly performed poorly against Westmeath this year and some pundit might eventually put two and two together and realise alot of this boils down to Westmeath's intensity.) Duffy was disappointing and he has much more ability than he showed, I hope this was just a temporary blip. O'Donoghue's distribution was excellent again (not least for the goal) for most of the game and he won some decent ball. John Keane aside Doran Harte was Westmeath's best player in my opinion, the amount of work he got through was immense and I can't recall him putting a foot wrong all day. Glennon delivered, he should have converteted that chance in the closing stages but I think he was right to take his point from the free and he showed well from play all day. I think his move out the field was a good one at the time and I'd have swapped himself and Dolan for a bit longer myself. If the ref had played the half minute that Cluxton had wasted kicking the ball out from the last free we could have nicked a goal.
I thought taking John Smith off was a mistake, he was getting through the work all day and was picking up breaking ball consistently, something which Westmeath didn't do after he was taken off. I'd have brought Flanagan on but taken Buddah off at that stage. Flanagan wasn't up to the pace of the game at all unfortunately. Without completely forgetting about this year if we can keep the stalwarts like Healy and Flanagan performing for another year, keep the hunger and workrate up, get Connellan back and give Bannon another year I'd be confident we could win Leinster next year with a fully fit team. Indeed I'd be confident we would have won yesterday with a fully fit team for the 70 minutes.
As for this year, Tomás put it well, "We're not finished yet."

Iarmhí Abú.

Pretty ungracious stuff there.

You lost by the same margin that we lost to the AI champions in last years semi, you cannot consider yourselves as good as Dublin as Dublin have proven themselves in Leinster.

WRT blood subs - there is no length of time specified so there was no rule breaking. I don't know what side of the ground you were sitting, but I was in the row directly behind the Dublin bench and his nose was pouring blood initially when it was stiched and it reopened completely with blood pouring out of it.

[Hound]

I'm sure Ryan going off, back on, then off again, all in the first half was completely genuine. The chap had blood puring from his nose, it stopped, then it started again. I think the general disarray it caused had a big impact for the Westmeath goal with a number of Dubs nowhere near their men for some reason.

Ryan looked ready to resume after about 5 minutes of the second half, did a couple of runs up the side of the field - but the next time I looked he was sat back down with the physio at his nose again. Did it start bleeding again or did they delay because Whelan had started the second half in very good form? In any event Whelan himself picked up an injury 5 minutes later and Ryan was then ready to resume.

Barring the initial and costly disruption, it did work out well for the Dubs, with the three midfielders getting between 40 and 50 minutes game time each. Maybe we should get Shane to get bloody in every game. No better man to take one for the team! (I think it was his own man who got him too)

[Jinxy]

I think Ryan got another bang after he came back on. He wasn't too happy with one of the Westmeath lads after a tackle on the Cusack stand side. Went off again straight afterwards.

[heffo]

I think Ryan got another bang after he came back on. He wasn't too happy with one of the Westmeath lads after a tackle on the Cusack stand side. Went off again straight afterwards.

First knock was with McConnell and resulted in Dublin dropping posession and W/Meath kicking a point as a result.

[Jinxy]

I know, but when he came back on after getting treatment for that injury, he got another belt which opened the nose up again.

[heffo]

I know!! I assumed that was what you meant by 'another belt'.

[Jinxy]

Then why are you telling me how he got the first belt u mentalist!