The Official Lisbon Treaty Thread

[stevo-08]

Stevo are you winding us up here or do you really just not have a clue what you are talking about?

This is how politics works:

1. If we have a VETO and choose not to us it we cannot blame the Lisbon treaty and if it is such an issue the people can demand that the government step down but a stike or March.

2. Voting NO does not mean that our government will not agree to taxation as this treaty does not give us a VETO as we already have a VETO and by voting NO the government can still agree to the change.


Total Rubbish being talked here by the NO lads. You boys will convince anyone with a brain to vote yes as you clearly are just making up stuff or just aint got a clue!

Thanks for telling me how politics works Tankie, very useful 

But as zapista says...

The fact is if you don't trust the Government to use the Veto on tax then it is best to not provide them with the opertunity. IF taxation is not within the Lisbon treaty then there are no worries but if it is vote no (veto it) until it is removed.

By the way Tankie, have you actually read the treaty. I presume you have since you seem such an expert. So please tell me specifically what article says we have a veto on taxation? As I said earlier in this thread, Jens-Peter Bonde (an MEP since 1979) says the claims about a Veto & Unanimous Voting are far from clearcut. And unlike most of the Yes camp, Jens-Peter has actually read the treaty in full and scrutinised it. Im not saying he's 100% right, but it certainly raises some doubt over the claims from the Yes side.


By the way, i agree fully on the scaremongering tactics being used by sinn fein. The No side would be better off without them. So lets keep them out of the debate, I dont see too many posters here defending them too strongly.

[johnpower]

By the way Tankie, have you actually read the treaty. I presume you have since you seem such an expert. So please tell me specifically what article says we have a veto on taxation? As I said earlier in this thread, Jens-Peter Bonde (an MEP since 1979) says the claims about a Veto & Unanimous Voting are far from clearcut. And unlike most of the Yes camp, Jens-Peter has actually read the treaty in full and scrutinised it. Im not saying he's 100% right, but it certainly raises some doubt over the claims from the Yes side.



So we should all read the treaty line by line before we offer an oppinion ?. Who is the MEP ? I am involved every day of the week with Tax and know that tax rates will not be harmonised .
I accept that the treaty is very poorly explained but the fault of that lies with the Government of the day whose ministers were on every media defending the "Bert " and his sterling lodgment's and are now no where to be seen or heard

[stevo-08]

So we should all read the treaty line by line before we offer an oppinion ?. Who is the MEP ? I am involved every day of the week with Tax and know that tax rates will not be harmonised . I accept that the treaty is very poorly explained but the fault of that lies with the Government of the day whose ministers were on every media defending the "Bert " and his sterling lodgment's and are now no where to be seen or heard

Did I say that? Everyone's entitled to their opinion and I think I've respected everyone's contributions here. I was directing that comment at Tankie who is taking alot of shots at the No side, claiming they are either mad or havent a clue.

I see the sunday business post has the Yes side ahead in a recent poll
http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-qqqs=news-qqqid=33567-qqqx=1.asp

[Tankie]

So we should all read the treaty line by line before we offer an oppinion ?. Who is the MEP ? I am involved every day of the week with Tax and know that tax rates will not be harmonised . I accept that the treaty is very poorly explained but the fault of that lies with the Government of the day whose ministers were on every media defending the "Bert " and his sterling lodgment's and are now no where to be seen or heard

Did I say that? Everyone's entitled to their opinion and I think I've respected everyone's contributions here. I was directing that comment at Tankie who is taking alot of shots at the No side, claiming they are either mad or havent a clue.

I see the sunday business post has the Yes side ahead in a recent poll
http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-qqqs=news-qqqid=33567-qqqx=1.asp

I aint taking shots at the NO camp I am just pointing out that TAX has nothing to do with the treaty (i dont think that we discussed any other part of the treaty). I think if you listened to what Johnpower had to say you would see that you are wrong on this issue.

[stevo-08]

But Tax is part of the Treaty. There's a whole chapter on Tax Provisions in it. And article 113 mentions the hamonisation of taxes to avoid distortion of competition. Now as Muppet said earlier, this is in relation to VAT & other indirect taxes (which Im not sure I'd be delighted about either). As regards corporation tax, if we do have a veto, Im just not as confident as you that we'd actually use it. But maybe I am wrong about that.

As regards other issues with the Treaty, I certainly dont like that its basically a rehashed version of the EU constitution, which was already rejected by millions of French & Dutch. But sure lets just change the rules making sure they dont get a say this time. It also enables them to change the Treaty afterwards, and we may not be entitled to a referendum on those changes. The whole thing doesnt sound very democratic to me.

[magickingdom]

But Tax is part of the Treaty. There's a whole chapter on Tax Provisions in it. And article 113 mentions the hamonisation of taxes to avoid distortion of competition. Now as Muppet said earlier, this is in relation to VAT & other indirect taxes (which Im not sure I'd be delighted about either). As regards corporation tax, if we do have a veto, Im just not as confident as you that we'd actually use it. But maybe I am wrong about that.

As regards other issues with the Treaty, I certainly dont like that its basically a rehashed version of the EU constitution, which was already rejected by millions of French & Dutch. But sure lets just change the rules making sure they dont get a say this time. It also enables them to change the Treaty afterwards, and we may not be entitled to a referendum on those changes. The whole thing doesnt sound very democratic to me.

you do know that it was passed by spain and luxemburg...

[stevo-08]

Yes I did know that. And Im sure the people who voted No in those countries (particularly in luxemburg where it was a narrow enough victory) arent too happy that their voice wont be heard on the Lisbon Treaty.

[magickingdom]

Yes I did know that. And Im sure the people who voted No in those countries (particularly in luxemburg where it was a narrow enough victory) arent too happy that their voice wont be heard on the Lisbon Treaty.

and it was a dud when the dutch rejected it as france had already said no. not much point in the dutch yes crowd coming out for that

[doire na raithe]

Did anyone listen to the pat kenny show on radio 1 this morning? God it was hard to listen to. He had about 8 participants in the debate all shouting over each other. He was pathetic at chairing, lost absolute control of the debate. It would have left anyone listening much more confused that they already were.

[magpie seanie]

I was a fairly solid "Yes" at the start of the campaign but after giving it a lot of consideration I've changed my mind and will be voting no. The campaign has been poor with both sides telling loads of lies. I'm of the opinion that sooner or later we need to call a halt to the slide towards a United States of Europe and in the apparent absence of any real tangible benefits from this treaty, I think now is the time. How the EU works is ok for me now. I'm not convinced we should change our constitution so I'll vote no. It says a lot about the political establishment in this country when they couldn't convince me, who'd be fairly willing to listen, that this is a good thing.

Caveat - I still think a large proportion of the "No" campaigners are loons who have no clue about the treaty either and disassociate myself from them.

[Tankie]

Did anybody hear the NO guy on the Right Hook this evening? he was very good and gave a decent view point on it. I'll have to wait and hear what BIFFO has to say tomorrow and then make up my mind for sure.

[muppet]

I was a fairly solid "Yes" at the start of the campaign but after giving it a lot of consideration I've changed my mind and will be voting no. The campaign has been poor with both sides telling loads of lies. I'm of the opinion that sooner or later we need to call a halt to the slide towards a United States of Europe and in the apparent absence of any real tangible benefits from this treaty, I think now is the time. How the EU works is ok for me now. I'm not convinced we should change our constitution so I'll vote no. It says a lot about the political establishment in this country when they couldn't convince me, who'd be fairly willing to listen, that this is a good thing.

Caveat - I still think a large proportion of the "No" campaigners are loons who have no clue about the treaty either and disassociate myself from them.

The bold above is a very important point. Saying no does not change anything. It does not mean you are against or ungrateful for the EU. It can mean you are happy with things as they are. We (nor has any other country) have given no mandate to our politicians to present us with Treaty after T(h)reaty bringing European Unity closer and closer. That is not to say I oppose it, I just demand that I (and every other European) have a say in it. It must be done democratically.

A no vote does not mean you are a member of Libertas or any other group.

This is the greatest failure by the pro-Treaty parties. They assume because most of us voted for one of them in the last General Election that we will hang on their every word in a referendum if they all agree to vote yes.

I heard Harney on the radio saying 'it is the same old people voting no as were against us joining the EEC in the first place'. I was 4 at the time. Anyone currently under the age of 52 didn't have a vote in that referendum.

[magickingdom]

Did anybody hear the NO guy on the Right Hook this evening? he was very good and gave a decent view point on it. I'll have to wait and hear what BIFFO has to say tomorrow and then make up my mind for sure.

dont you start changing tankie, get out, shut up and vote yes

[Tankie]

Did anybody hear the NO guy on the Right Hook this evening? he was very good and gave a decent view point on it. I'll have to wait and hear what BIFFO has to say tomorrow and then make up my mind for sure.

dont you start changing tankie, get out, shut up and vote yes

I must say that the guy was very good today, there was no bullshite just facts so i wanna listen to BIFFO and see what he says but i think i will still vote yes as I do not think that there is a better deal to be got and it is a compromise so we gotta give something up

[Seany]

Mary Lou McDonald made absolute shite of the Yes Camp tonight on Questions and Answers.