The Official Lisbon Treaty Thread

[Zapatista]

The Brits will come to our rescue and use their Veto on tax if we don't have the balls to use it. The Brits are totally against tax harmonisation in the EU.

That's that problem solved so.

[MasterShake]

From RTE this evening...

"'No' Lisbon vote surges ahead in poll"

The latest opinion poll on the Lisbon Referendum is showing the 'No' side surging ahead in a dramatic reversal of opinion.

The TNS/mrbi poll in tomorrow's Irish Times shows opponents of the Treaty with a 5% lead over those in favour.

Up to now, opinion polls on the Referendum campaign have consistently shown the 'Yes' side ahead, although opponents have been closing the gap.

But now the 'No' side has done more than that, surging into a commanding lead with just a week to polling day.

The poll shows the 'Yes' side at 30%, down five points since their last poll three weeks ago, while the 'No' side is at 35%, up a staggering 17%, with 'Don't Knows' down 12 at 35%.

If that result is repeated next week, the political establishment is heading for a crushing defeat and the Lisbon Treaty is dead.

What a turnaround in a week! Have they learned nothing from the Nice Treaty debacle? Simply expecting people to turn out and vote yes, without explaining what they're voting for, is a joke. I's be surprised of the YES camp pull this one back.

[Bogball XV]

And 'no' is surging ahead, both here and nationwide, great stuff.

[stephenite]

Apologies if this has already been covered on this thread.

This Libertas crowd that have been the most vocal NO campaigners have some seriously dodgy connections with the US and it's military - that would be a major concern for me, why are the US military so interested in ensuring that there is a NO vote on this treaty?

[Tankie]

its a hard one to call. i think the yes vote will win if there is decent turn out.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

What's "Official" about this thread?

The "No" camp are ahead, and proper order - this treaty is nothing more than a heavy-handed attempt to erode Irish democracy, accountability, neutrality, and independence; under the guise of 'greater co-operation and manageability of the enlarged European Union', which might otherwise be 'unmanoeuvrable'! Oh yeah? This treaty represents nothing more than a rehash of The Treaty of Nice, which in itself was the embodiment of an extremely dangerous set of proposals to drive us all towards an unfettered free-market Friedmanesque market-based existence -- from health, to social welfare, to medicine, etc. Now, we're faced with this vote to rubber stamp Brussels' very heavy hand in directing our very day-to-day life on this planet.  They have no right. This Treaty is a blueprint for subservience as a people, to yet another greater power. No.


Edit: And what's more, we'll be doing the rest of (disgracefully disenfranchised) Europe a favour by sending this particular dogs dinner (of a treaty) back to the drawing-board (sorry Fido!).

[stephenite]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7439104.stm

[Zapatista]

Apologies if this has already been covered on this thread.

This Libertas crowd that have been the most vocal NO campaigners have some seriously dodgy connections with the US and it's military - that would be a major concern for me, why are the US military so interested in ensuring that there is a NO vote on this treaty?

I don't like Ganley and I worry about his motives for doing this. However, I don't think the US military are involved in his agenda. I think the British Army have much stronger conections to the US army than Ganley will ever have. I don't think that is any more concerning than than the the British Prime Minister, the French President or any other Government making and selling weapons to the highest bidder and Lisbon telling us to increase Military spending.

[stevo-08]

Whatever about Ganley & the No camp, I think the YES side are having a disasterous campaign. Brendan Butler seems to think this is a referendum to decide whether we should stay in the EU or not. 

That said, Marian Harkin spoke well yesterday. Although again it seems most of the Yes argument seems to be just refuting the attacks from the No side, and still hasnt spelled out any positive reason for Ireland to vote for this treaty.

Regarding the recent poll, I am a bit surprised with those results but I see it's mainly due to the public still not understanding what the treaty will mean. I dont think it's too late for the Yes side to pull this one back.

[Bogball XV]

Apologies if this has already been covered on this thread.

This Libertas crowd that have been the most vocal NO campaigners have some seriously dodgy connections with the US and it's military - that would be a major concern for me, why are the US military so interested in ensuring that there is a NO vote on this treaty?

McEvaddy and Ganley have companies in the US who have some connections to US military, afaik these companies are relatively small and contribute very little to either man's wealth, I do however share concerns about both men and their motives - maybe they're simply like the rest of us, ie don't like the way the euro beauraucrats are trying to railroad this treaty through without giving the people a proper say, maybe they're not.  We should be careful of anything we read over the next few days though, as I expect this campaign is going to get very dirty, I'd say Sunday's Indo will have a few 'exclusives'.

[Main Street]

Why do the Government of the Day seem to always win the toss with a referendum
with the yes vote  being the one they want?
Has there ever been a referendum where the Government of the day supported/wanted a NO vote?

I heard a good one from the No campaign on the radio this morning

"The positive pro europe vote is a NO"
,

[Tankie]

Why do the Government of the Day seem to always win the toss with a referendum
with the yes vote  being the one they want?
Has there ever been a referendum where the Government of the day supported/wanted a NO vote?

I heard a good one from the No campaign on the radio this morning

"The positive pro europe vote is a NO"
,

Well the government of the day always want a yes vote as they would have agreed to it in negotiations of the treaty and would think it is good for the country.

On the pro europe thing I really think the no camp will say anything to get people to vote NO, a total lack of credability really!

[Main Street]

I always thought that the wording of a referendum was framed so that a yes vote reflected what the Government of the day  wanted.
But maybe I´m just  too cynical

[stiffler]

For those of us who have not been following the Lisbon treaty debate, could someone outline the 3 main reasons for voting yes and 3 for no.

Thanks.

[Zapatista]

Yes - It makes changes in how the EU works in order to make the process work better with the recent enlargement.
      - It brings the Charter of Fundamental rights to legal effect in all EU institutions.
      - It enhances the role of the EU on a world stage.

No  - It increases the power of large countries while reducing the power of small countries in the EU Parliament
      - It commits us to a common foreign policy.
      - It promotes competition with in all EU states without defining which services are outside the competition laws.

There are more for both and these ones can all be countered.