Why The Grants/Awards/Pay-for-Play Scheme Has To Be Opposed

[zoyler]

Gnevin appears unaware of recently quoted case of Belgian Gymnast who took case to E.C, and the Courts view that a grant is the same as a payment butsure what would the oul European Court know!!

[Gnevin]

Gnevin appears unaware of recently quoted case of Belgian Gymnast who took case to E.C, and the Courts view that a grant is the same as a payment butsure what would the oul European Court know!!

Link please

[quidnunc]

Grants are not the same are payments ,so the bosman doesn't apply

Ok, the message just isn't getting through to GNevin. So I'm going to have to spell this out clearly once more:


In the Deliege case (the Belgian judo participant), the European Court of Justice ruled that her grant was an "economic activity" and therefore the Bosman principles did apply.

End of that particular argument.

[Gnevin]

Grants are not the same are payments ,so the bosman doesn't apply

Ok, the message just isn't getting through to GNevin. So I'm going to have to spell this out clearly once more:


In the Deliege case (the Belgian judo participant), the European Court of Justice ruled that her grant was an "economic activity" and therefore the Bosman principles did apply.

End of that particular argument.

I was unaware of this issue , I stand corrected .

[quidnunc]

I was unaware of this issue , I stand corrected .

Well maybe now we can sit down and talk, without the need for binding arbitration. 

[DUBSFORSAM1]

Grants are not the same are payments ,so the bosman doesn't apply

Ok, the message just isn't getting through to GNevin. So I'm going to have to spell this out clearly once more:


In the Deliege case (the Belgian judo participant), the European Court of Justice ruled that her grant was an "economic activity" and therefore the Bosman principles did apply.

End of that particular argument.

Quidinc - You need to get your facts correct on this issue......She was getting a grant from teh Belgian Judo Federation and because she was getting this grant (ie her association were paying her) the Bosman ruling applied......in this case the GAA are not paying the players so this doesn't apply.

[quidnunc]

Quidinc - You need to get your facts correct on this issue......She was getting a grant from teh Belgian Judo Federation and because she was getting this grant (ie her association were paying her) the Bosman ruling applied......in this case the GAA are not paying the players so this doesn't apply.

Oh, believe me DFS/Kingdub, I have my facts straight. But you don't seem to understand the legal principle involved. Because the grant constituted an "economic activity", it did not matter who paid it. (Never mind the fact that the GAA would be distributing the money if the grants are paid!)

And just in case you think you can bluff me, I've done some more homework on this:

Deliege was not picked by the Belgian Federation to take part in a European tournament, and she then argued in court that the Federation had limited her ability to qualify for the Olympics, and by extension, her economic earning potential, citing the Bosman precedent.

The Belgian and European Judo federations, backed up by several European governments, contended in defence that judo was an amateur sport irrespective of the grant paid, and that the grant alone would not make her a living, so Bosman could not therefore apply.

The judge ruled in Deliege's favour, on the basis that the grant constituted "economic activity" regardless of who paid it, if it went to enhance her sporting performance. As she received the grant, he decreed, she was a "non-amateur", if not a "semi-professional".

Interestingly, the judge also ruled that there IS a difference between a grant to a sportsperson and a scholarship to someone at university.

Facts straight enough now?

[AZOffaly]

AZ, I admire the stance you've taken on this issue up to now, but your above response is misplaced on so many levels.

How is the issue talked to death when it has NEVER been discussed at any national body of the association other than Central Council?

We were talking about opening Croke Park to soccer and rugby for 5-6 years; we've only been talking about the grants for 3 months!

Most of the scenarios outlined in this list are realistic future scenarios if the grants are paid. You are going to have row after row if they are paid, for the reasons outlined and more. Going through every issue now in debate is much more preferable than ceaseless wrangling over how much a player is "worth" when you factor in inflation etc.

The pro-grants camp have absolutely no genuine answer to the legalistic implications of these grants. And yet you say, "go ahead lads, plough on anyway".

Believe me, this "debate" hasn't even begun yet.

I agree 100% with all of that. What I was saying is that we have done it to death on here. Positions are firmly entrenched and our recommendation has gone to Central Council

The issue is on the clár for Congress I believe, and that's enough for me.

[RadioGAAGAA]

most of those arguments were used by the 'anti' camp.
I would reject that anyone who dosent want the GAA to go down the road, so damnified by members of many rugby clubs who have been literally destroyed since the era of professionalism has came in should be described as the "anti camp".  Try using Pro (but not professional) GAA camp instead.  Anyone who is "Pro" Grant I ask them to talk to any member of Dungaanon Rugby Club, AIL Division 1 winners in 2000 what they think of professionalism.  Dont propose your grants any more until you at least do your research.  Talk to any of these guys, and then come back to the "anti" brigade.

EXACTLY.


I have discussed the grants with guys that play rugby here in work, and they view professionalism in their sport as a poison. The number of teams fielded by clubs has plummeted, and this during the national team's peak - they worry about how bad things may get if/when rugby isn't getting the high profile publicity it has now.

[AZOffaly]

most of those arguments were used by the 'anti' camp.
I would reject that anyone who dosent want the GAA to go down the road, so damnified by members of many rugby clubs who have been literally destroyed since the era of professionalism has came in should be described as the "anti camp".  Try using Pro (but not professional) GAA camp instead.  Anyone who is "Pro" Grant I ask them to talk to any member of Dungaanon Rugby Club, AIL Division 1 winners in 2000 what they think of professionalism.  Dont propose your grants any more until you at least do your research.  Talk to any of these guys, and then come back to the "anti" brigade.

feetofflames, just saw this now. Sheesh, semantics Alright, if I said the 'anti grants camp' would that be better?. I'm very leery of these grants, as my posts on all the other threads about this subject would show, so I am not in any way trying to insinuate that the word 'anti' in this context carries any sort of negative connotations in terms of attitudes towards the GAA.

[Hound]

The judge ruled in Deliege's favour, on the basis that the grant constituted "economic activity" regardless of who paid it, if it went to enhance her sporting performance. As she received the grant, he decreed, she was a "non-amateur", if not a "semi-professional".

Interestingly, the judge also ruled that there IS a difference between a grant to a sportsperson and a scholarship to someone at university.

Facts straight enough now?

The judge did not say "regardless of who paid it".

My interpretation is that the fact it was the judo federation paying it was very important.

Your interpretation would equate to any sponsorship or gift to a sportsperson as representing an employee-employer situation. Which would be nonsense in my view.

And even in the unlikely event of you being right, what's the worst thing that can happen?

Player transfers can only happen if they are allowed under GAA rules. If young brilliant Clare footballer wants to play for Kerry, but Kerry won't take him because he doesnt qualify, there is nothing he can do - Bosman or no Bosman. Only if the Kerry (or other) county boards change their rules or policies on accepting outsiders would there be any chance of unrestricted inter county transfers.

It all comes back to the one thing, that many can't get into their heads. No matter what the players may want, there is no chance of professional GAA unless and until GAA officialdom brings it in.

[AZOffaly]

It all comes back to the one thing, that many can't get into their heads. No matter what the players may want, there is no chance of professional GAA unless and until GAA officialdom brings it in.

Or unless they are forced to bring it in via a series of ever escalating disputes and mini battles which all lead towards the real end-game.

We've had this before Hound, and you are definitely a 'glass half full guy', whereas I am 'glass half empty guy' when it comes to the grand vision the GPA has for itself and its members. I don't think we are going to agree. And in 35 years time, when the first professional contract is signed, I'll come onto the holographic GAA board and say 'See. Told you so.'

The judge did not say "regardless of who paid it".

My interpretation is that the fact it was the judo federation paying it was very important.

However, I do agree with you here. I took the same interpretation of that Belgian ruling, i.e. because the Federation directly paid from their own funds all or part of the grant, then it constituted economic activity.


Still, I think the scenario whereby the GPA intensely lobby the GAA for money if and when the Government decide that it cannot pay GAA players grants for kicking/pucking a ball around, especially in recessionary times, and the GAA capitulating after another series of strikes and threatened strikes is not a totally unrealistic vision.

The GAA have shown a decided lack of resolve in standing up to GPA demands in the past, (of course some of those demands were perfectly reasonable, and no right minding person should have 'stood up to them') and therefore I doubt if the GAA has the real stomach to take on the GPA if these issues did come to a head.

[zoyler]

Hound - while not ceding ground on the transferability issue - can you not see a scenario when county x or y ( OK Wicklow or Kildare)  actively encourage inward transfer in their search for a better team that a Bosman situation will arise.   And if Counties can start recruiting they will give the AFL a lesson in the art.

[thejuice]

London anger at 'exclusion' from grant scheme
By Cliona Foley
Thursday February 14 2008


LONDON'S inter-county players have expressed outrage at speculation that they will not be included in the new GAA grant scheme, WRITES CLIONA FOLEY.


Croke Park have begun negotiations with the Irish Sports Council (ISC) on how to distribute the money, ISC boss John Treacy confirmed yesterday. But overseas inter-county players -- from London and New York -- are still waiting for official confirmation that they will get their share of the controversial scheme.

London football keeper Brian McBrearty said he has received a recent assurance from GPA CEO Dessie Farrell that they will be included. "There seems to be a lot of scaremongering going on but I'd be very surprised and disappointed if we weren't included," said McBrearty, who is the official GPA rep for London.

"The GPA balloted everyone over here. If they didn't want us to get anything, why did they ballot us in the first place? If that turns out to be the case it stinks of elitism."

Donegal native McBrearty said he spoke to Farrell on the matter last Friday but said he and his exile playing colleagues have not yet had any confirmation from central authorities.

The distribution mechanism for the grants still has to resolved and meetings with the Sports Council to sort out this problematic area are now ongoing.

A lot of county boards put their foot down and said they would not get involved in the distribution, which forced the GAA to go to the Sports Council to see if they will administer the scheme centrally.

And while the payment of grants for players who play senior championship has been agreed in principle, it must yet be ratified at National Congress in April and it is clear that it will face strong opposition from several counties at that final stage.

[AZOffaly]

What a non-story.

LONDON'S inter-county players have expressed outrage at speculation that they will not be included in the new GAA grant scheme, WRITES CLIONA FOLEY.


Croke Park have begun negotiations with the Irish Sports Council (ISC) on how to distribute the money, ISC boss John Treacy confirmed yesterday. But overseas inter-county players -- from London and New York -- are still waiting for official confirmation that they will get their share of the controversial scheme.

London football keeper Brian McBrearty said he has received a recent assurance from GPA CEO Dessie Farrell that they will be included. "There seems to be a lot of scaremongering going on but I'd be very surprised and disappointed if we weren't included," said McBrearty, who is the official GPA rep for London.

"The GPA balloted everyone over here. If they didn't want us to get anything, why did they ballot us in the first place? If that turns out to be the case it stinks of elitism."

Donegal native McBrearty said he spoke to Farrell on the matter last Friday but said he and his exile playing colleagues have not yet had any confirmation from central authorities.

The distribution mechanism for the grants still has to resolved and meetings with the Sports Council to sort out this problematic area are now ongoing.

A lot of county boards put their foot down and said they would not get involved in the distribution, which forced the GAA to go to the Sports Council to see if they will administer the scheme centrally.

And while the payment of grants for players who play senior championship has been agreed in principle, it must yet be ratified at National Congress in April and it is clear that it will face strong opposition from several counties at that final stage.

Basically, GAA try to sort out distribution, matter still to be ratified at Congress, no official word yet, blah blah blah. Yet 'London anger at 'exclusion' from grant scheme'. nice use of quotes around 'exclusion' to show that this whole story is made up.