Pre Season Training

[The Claw]

I was just about to say that this thread was one of the best of these types untill that last comment O Neill, a lot of these training thread end up with a load of sh1t talk on it but there are some good posts above from people who know their stuff.

From my point of view, i find the correct type of weights beneficial. I play in a central position so taking hits is part of the game. Not being naturally quick however, I am wary of the type of weights I do. I always do two types of injury on a muscle, one with a heavy weight, 3 sets of 8 maybe and then a low weight doing it explosively. Very often I just do an explosive exercise instead of the light weight. Eg. Id to a set on bench press and then a set of 10 clap push ups as explosive as i can, antoher would be shoulder press and then do clean and jerk.
This type of training is more important for leg weights because just doing weights on legs can slow them up. So after doing a squat i do a set of tuck jumps as high as i can. This is as close to what I do as I could find.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNqZZ98fjEM
Of course this is mainly speed work so stamina work would have to be done. I find interval running good for stamina work and matches, especially handpassing matches.

[ONeill]

I was only codding about the tea.

[DUBSFORSAM1]

Zulu - Have to disagree about the long intervals and the weights....I found the weights of great benefit...

I think the weights are just a gimmick to be honest DFS, they do nothing that hill running, water running or resistant running couldn't achieve. I feel they add to much pressure on the joints of people and if you had weak knees or shoulders they would increase the chances of injury immensely. As for the league intervals, they are brilliant for early season stamina training, though I'd accept they are not the only way of skinning that particular cat.

Each to their own Zulu I guess.....its just that I find interval training not my cup of tea.....did it for years at a younger age but then spent a couple of years playing reserve football in Europe and the training there was totally different....everything was short distance and speed based...10 10m sprints, 10 20m sprints, 10 30 m sprints all rotating each time so you didn't know which was next....far more realistic for match efforts...ie building up the match fitness.....

[Zulu]

Each to their own Zulu I guess.....its just that I find interval training not my cup of tea.....did it for years at a younger age but then spent a couple of years playing reserve football in Europe and the training there was totally different....everything was short distance and speed based...10 10m sprints, 10 20m sprints, 10 30 m sprints all rotating each time so you didn't know which was next....far more realistic for match efforts...ie building up the match fitness.....

Don't get me wrong DFS I agree 100% with you it's just that that type of training i.e. the short intense type runs would be done later on in the season. You have to get the aerobic base before working on the anaerobic fitness and then finally short sharp work. But the one thing about developing fitness is that there isn't just one way and there isn't even really a best way, there is still so much not fully understood that little can be said with 100% confidence.

[DMarsden]

the proper type of weights done in the correct manner will never slow you down. obviously, if you are doing the pec work and other body beautiful conditioning you'll depreciate. similarly, misguided "strength" programs are detrimental to the attributes you will be trying to develop on the pitch.

[lynchbhoy]

disagree lynchboy - while i'd agree with you in theory i'd love it to be that way still but as you go up the grades the unfortunate reality of modern Gaelic Football is that without speed and strength there is a limit to far you can go. You can have all the natural skill in the world but as you move up the grades you'll get smashed. Equally without skill you won't go far either- but you need both unfortunately.
Have to say in contrast to the above- it was only when i did serious weights including leg weigths coupled with speed training that i saw real speed benefits. It improved my stamina aLso no end as i could keep running for much longer and was able to keep going when others were on their knees. There is no substitute for skill but it isn't enough anymore- i could name about 10 dublin players in the last decade who had the skil to play county but none of the other attributes and as a result never really cut it at senior intercounty level. It's the unfortunate reality as the game slowly heads towards full time professionalism.

I dont know how to asnwer yourself and abbeysider - I dont rate weights, as I would not expect football and hurling players to have reached adult levels, playing as much as is asked of them and not have a decent amount of physicality and built up strength - then again I suppose its how they have been trained.
I was going to say that gym work didnt do feck all for me, but I did work on building sites doing heavy duty stuff as a cub.
But I have advised plenty to stick to light weights and just build up strength which seemed to server its purpose.
I know of too many that overdid the weights and ruined them for football.

Abbeysider, in general rugby lads run straight lines with the odd jink etc here or ther, but they tend only to attack in one direction so agility is not quite the same.

I wouldnt laugh at yoga or pilates now (I would have 15 years ago) - I wish I had done something like that and wouldnt be as physically fecked as i am now - heading to see hip specialist on monday.

anyhow, I still think that the physical fitness and strength required for playing football and hurling can be created on the training field.
If a player is overly light or weak, or needs to build up something after inj - then I think the gym has its uses, but overall, I dont think that football players especially benefit greatly by more than a very small bit of gym work.
imo - from what I have seen.

[Jinxy]

disagree lynchboy - while i'd agree with you in theory i'd love it to be that way still but as you go up the grades the unfortunate reality of modern Gaelic Football is that without speed and strength there is a limit to far you can go. You can have all the natural skill in the world but as you move up the grades you'll get smashed. Equally without skill you won't go far either- but you need both unfortunately.
Have to say in contrast to the above- it was only when i did serious weights including leg weigths coupled with speed training that i saw real speed benefits. It improved my stamina aLso no end as i could keep running for much longer and was able to keep going when others were on their knees. There is no substitute for skill but it isn't enough anymore- i could name about 10 dublin players in the last decade who had the skil to play county but none of the other attributes and as a result never really cut it at senior intercounty level. It's the unfortunate reality as the game slowly heads towards full time professionalism.

I dont know how to asnwer yourself and abbeysider - I dont rate weights, as I would not expect football and hurling players to have reached adult levels, playing as much as is asked of them and not have a decent amount of physicality and built up strength - then again I suppose its how they have been trained.
I was going to say that gym work didnt do feck all for me, but I did work on building sites doing heavy duty stuff as a cub.
But I have advised plenty to stick to light weights and just build up strength which seemed to server its purpose.
I know of too many that overdid the weights and ruined them for football.

Abbeysider, in general rugby lads run straight lines with the odd jink etc here or ther, but they tend only to attack in one direction so agility is not quite the same.

I wouldnt laugh at yoga or pilates now (I would have 15 years ago) - I wish I had done something like that and wouldnt be as physically fecked as i am now - heading to see hip specialist on monday.

anyhow, I still think that the physical fitness and strength required for playing football and hurling can be created on the training field.
If a player is overly light or weak, or needs to build up something after inj - then I think the gym has its uses, but overall, I dont think that football players especially benefit greatly by more than a very small bit of gym work.
imo - from what I have seen.

I disagree with everything else you've said except this. One rugby lad who used to come up to train with us had the turning circle of a cruise liner. And he was playing rugby at a high adult level.

[The Claw]

I wouldnt laugh at yoga or pilates now (I would have 15 years ago) - I wish I had done something like that and wouldnt be as physically fecked as i am now - heading to see hip specialist on monday.

I bit a bit of yoga a while ago and i swear to god it was one of the toughest things ive ever done. They say its no sweat exercise... well i was drenched. If anyone doubts me, place the palms of your hands together and extend your arms directly above your head, keep your palms together, your arms straight and keep your head looking forward. SOmething similar to this:
http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper920/stills/3e220bcad3f83-51-1.jpg
If anyone can do that for a minute you have gained my respect.

As for pilates, much better for football or hurling. It works the core which is so important for everything. Also helps balance and agility, would recommend this over yoga. Yoga moreso if you find yourself very inflexible.

[AbbeySider]

Abbeysider, in general rugby lads run straight lines with the odd jink etc here or ther, but they tend only to attack in one direction so agility is not quite the same.

I disagree with everything else you've said except this. One rugby lad who used to come up to train with us had the turning circle of a cruise liner. And he was playing rugby at a high adult level.

Well to a certain extent you both are correct. The forwards in rugby act as battering rams, running in straight powerful lines, asking major questions of the opposing defence. Forwards in rugby cant be jinking around the place because they would be swallowed up.

The little bit of rugger im playing is mostly on the wing or along the back line where using a jink and changing of direction is what its all about to be able to get past a player. To be a winger you need to bring your "dancing shoes"  and need to be able to jink and skip past someone and get out of trouble.


Going back to lynchboys comments

I was going to say that gym work didnt do feck all for me, but I did work on building sites doing heavy duty stuff as a cub.
...
anyhow, I still think that the physical fitness and strength required for playing football and hurling can be created on the training field.
...
If a player is overly light or weak, or needs to build up something after inj - then I think the gym has its uses, but overall, I dont think that football players especially benefit greatly by more than a very small bit of gym work.
imo - from what I have seen.

Im wondering what level are you talking about Lynchboy?
From what I can see there is a obvious difference in size and physique between the Senior football clubs compared to the Intermediate clubs in Mayo. The difference is size is down to the fact that the nearly all the senior clubs work harder in the gym and are taking the physical aspect of the game very seriously even bringing in outside help to condition lads in strength and power. They are bigger, stronger and more powerful and it makes a huge difference at that level.

Junior clubs and the some Intermediate clubs in Mayo wouldnt be taking the whole gym experience too seriously yet but even that is slowly changing.

Its has become part of the modern game and IMO any club choosing to opt out of gym work or ignore this fact will struggle to get to the top.

[Jinxy]

I wouldnt laugh at yoga or pilates now (I would have 15 years ago) - I wish I had done something like that and wouldnt be as physically fecked as i am now - heading to see hip specialist on monday.

I bit a bit of yoga a while ago and i swear to god it was one of the toughest things ive ever done. They say its no sweat exercise... well i was drenched. If anyone doubts me, place the palms of your hands together and extend your arms directly above your head, keep your palms together, your arms straight and keep your head looking forward. SOmething similar to this:
http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper920/stills/3e220bcad3f83-51-1.jpg
If anyone can do that for a minute you have gained my respect.

As for pilates, much better for football or hurling. It works the core which is so important for everything. Also helps balance and agility, would recommend this over yoga. Yoga moreso if you find yourself very inflexible.

Yogas all well and good, but I think you'll find that adopting any sort of position and holding it for an extended period of time will be very tiring. I've done yoga myself, purely for flexibility and prehab, but don't listen to anyone who tries to sell it to you as a strength development exercise for football. Look at the average yoga instructor. Sure they can eat a bowl of cornflakes balancing on their elbow, but a firm handshake would break them in two.

[lynchbhoy]

Im wondering what level are you talking about Lynchboy?
Its has become part of the modern game and IMO any club choosing to opt out of gym work or ignore this fact will struggle to get to the top.

senior level, intercounty level...

the point that you and jinxy are making are fine - but just because everyone ie doing it these days doesnt make it right.

I feel , and am glad to read that certain others in intercounty dev agree, that its not the way forward.
The whole thing is balance and moderation, a bit of all the aforementioned, but with a slant on replicating moves and configurations akin to playing football/hurling.
you wont win feck all with 8 x 'six feet plus' tall midfielders in the side (as kildare found out to their cost in the mid/late 80's)
a mix of size and shapes and abilities.
Likewise the training required for each shoul dbe tempered and tailored, with minimal weights work unless the guy is too light and weak.
imo - but also seemingly the mindset of mickey harte and super coach mcelkennon.

[Zulu]

There is no hard and fast rule on this one lads, in my personal opinion the right type of weight training can make a massive difference to most players. But if your job is physical and you have grown up doing physical work then it may not be overly benefical to you. However there is no doubt in my mind that a proerly laid out and implemented weights program done on a consistant basis over a number of years would make any footballer or hurler a better player over all. The problem is often the type of program given to players or the consistancy that they as amateur players apply the program.

[DUBSFORSAM1]

There is no hard and fast rule on this one lads, in my personal opinion the right type of weight training can make a massive difference to most players. But if your job is physical and you have grown up doing physical work then it may not be overly benefical to you. However there is no doubt in my mind that a proerly laid out and implemented weights program done on a consistant basis over a number of years would make any footballer or hurler a better player over all. The problem is often the type of program given to players or the consistancy that they as amateur players apply the program.

Zulu - Would you not agree that a properly laid out and implemented skills program would be of far more benefit that a weights program???

Heaven forbid I am actually agreeing with something Lynchboy says but all training should be based on match situations...can you kick a point off either foot after a 40 metre sprint etc is far more important than how strong you are....weights should only be required for slight/weaker players...and to my mind are used to compensate for a lack of footballing ability....considering all the weight etc that players do these days they still fall down very easy and I would love to see how a lot of them would cope playing 20/30 years ago when it was a far more physical game...

[AbbeySider]

Zulu - Would you not agree that a properly laid out and implemented skills program would be of far more benefit that a weights program???

Heaven forbid I am actually agreeing with something Lynchboy says but all training should be based on match situations...can you kick a point off either foot after a 40 metre sprint etc is far more important than how strong you are....weights should only be required for slight/weaker players...and to my mind are used to compensate for a lack of footballing ability....considering all the weight etc that players do these days they still fall down very easy and I would love to see how a lot of them would cope playing 20/30 years ago when it was a far more physical game...

Some good points apart from the bit I have highlighted. Its a big call to say that gym work is used to compensate for lack of skill. Working on both should go hand in hand. One is useless without the other.

Im not talking about making hulks out of anyone, just giving guys a more explosive strength, making them solid allowing them to ride tackles better and not buckle etc.

But this thread is still related to Off/Pre Season (this time of year) where I maintain that strength, power and core training is beneficial. Obviously working on parts of the game like cardio fitness, all the skills, especially mixing the two will be more important in the coming months ahead and gyming will become less important.

[Zulu]

DFS I'd basically agree with what Abbeysider said, fitness and team preparation is a multi-facated process. For example you wouldn't have a 100m sprinter just doing 100m sprints or a marathon runner wouldn't just do 20+ mile runs as part of their training. A proper gym program done on a players own time is IMO an invaluable aid to the overall development of any player. When he goes to training it should be all 'ball based' work, but as Abbeysider points out different parts of the season require different goals and weights have a role to play here.