Pre Season Training

[DUBSFORSAM1]

Zulu - Would you not agree that a properly laid out and implemented skills program would be of far more benefit that a weights program???

Heaven forbid I am actually agreeing with something Lynchboy says but all training should be based on match situations...can you kick a point off either foot after a 40 metre sprint etc is far more important than how strong you are....weights should only be required for slight/weaker players...and to my mind are used to compensate for a lack of footballing ability....considering all the weight etc that players do these days they still fall down very easy and I would love to see how a lot of them would cope playing 20/30 years ago when it was a far more physical game...

Some good points apart from the bit I have highlighted. Its a big call to say that gym work is used to compensate for lack of skill. Working on both should go hand in hand. One is useless without the other.
Im not talking about making hulks out of anyone, just giving guys a more explosive strength, making them solid allowing them to ride tackles better and not buckle etc.

But this thread is still related to Off/Pre Season (this time of year) where I maintain that strength, power and core training is beneficial. Obviously working on parts of the game like cardio fitness, all the skills, especially mixing the two is more important in the coming months ahead and gyming becomes less important.

For me it is blatantly obvious that this is not the case in nearly every county and with nearly every player....

For me someone who is skilled up properly will be able to handpass equally well off either hand and be able to kick well off either foot....this is blatantly clearly not the case in most footballers....and in fact should be able to pass/shoot accurately from distances of 30-40 metres without problem.....

[AbbeySider]

and to my mind are used to compensate for a lack of footballing ability

....
a big call to say that gym work is used to compensate for lack of skill. Working on both should go hand in hand. One is useless without the other.
....
Off/Pre Season

For me it is blatantly obvious that this is not the case in nearly every county and with nearly every player....

For me someone who is skilled up properly will be able to handpass equally well off either hand and be able to kick well off either foot....

agreed...

this is blatantly clearly not the case in most footballers....

agreed... most footballers have one good skill with one foot with limited ability in a weaker hand/foot...
but is that not the kind of thing thats developed at an early age rather than the age you would be working on your physique*...
(*when you start filling out in late teens and your 20's)

and in fact should be able to pass/shoot accurately from distances of 30-40 metres without problem.....

In a perfect world. But im not sure what point you are making.
Are you saying players should be constantly developing the skills aforementioned and not develop themselves physically at all?

Wouldn't agree with that one...

[lynchbhoy]

its not so much developing skills - but maintaining them

snooker, soccer, darts , basketball players all practise their skills to keep them profficient and at the top level
not indulging in physical exercise to pi]ut on strength or weight (ok darts could be the exception there! )

just because you can kick a 40 yard pass with your foot, does not mean you will do it immediatley without practising it every training session to 'keep your eye in'

[AbbeySider]

its not so much developing skills - but maintaining them

snooker, soccer, darts , basketball players all practise their skills to keep them profficient and at the top level
not indulging in physical exercise to pi]ut on strength or weight (ok darts could be the exception there! )

just because you can kick a 40 yard pass with your foot, does not mean you will do it immediatley without practising it every training session to 'keep your eye in'

Its the last time ill say it: Developing skills is very important but in all physical sports especially the likes of basketball, GAA, rugby etc a weights program is vital in the off season... here is an extract from a basketball training guidelines website:

....
Strength Development
If you develop your strength, over a long period of time by lifting weights, you will enhance your athletic skills. The core of all strength training is progressive resistance. This means that as your body becomes accustomed to one particular weight over a period of time and you can perform an exercise with little strain, more weight is added.

Free-weight training is perhaps the most popular and common form of strength training. As you exercise with free weights (barbells and dumbbells) the muscles being worked meet the same amount of resistance throughout the complete range of motion that you decide to put them through. If you are bench-pressing 200 pounds, your muscles have 200 pounds of resistance in the beginning, middle, and end of the lift.

A distinct advantage that free weights have over weight machines, the other major form of strength training, is that free weights are more versatile. For example, with dumbbells you can move through a complete muscle range. You will develop greater overall strength.

Generally speaking, guards and small forwards should be concerned with adding muscle tone (i.e., using less weight and doing more reps), while centers and power forwards should be concerned with building bulk (i.e., using more weight and doing fewer reps).

To design your own strength program, start by finding your single-lift capacity for each exercise. This is the maximum amount of weight you are able to comfortably lift one time using strictly correct lifting form. The program is derived from percentages of that single-lift capacity.
....
http://www.guidetocoachingbasketball.com/training.htm

The above applies to the likes of GAA and rugby. I understand that skills need to be worked on but there is at least 10-11 months of the year when players are hitting the pitch developing skills and cardio fitness.

The 1-3 month break should be used to give the player a break from that and should be used to develop strength which will result in an improvement in their athletic skills.

What happens then, after the break, is that players are hungry for football when they come back training in Jan/Feb because they had that break from the field.

I guarantee that if the off/pre season was spent running up down the pitch with a ball; shooting and soloing with both feet as well as sprinting that you will find that players will get burnt out and bored because they didnt get a break and are training, doing the same thing with the ball for 12 months of the year. You cant ask a player to do that.

There is 9-11 months of the year where players are developing skills like that and the off season should be spent developing strength.

[DUBSFORSAM1]

So abbeysider you don't think that players should get a couple of months off training at all then???
You need 2/3 months off in my opinion to relax, let the body get over the stresses and strains from the season before starting back training....

[lynchbhoy]

Its the last time ill say it: Developing skills is very important but in all physical sports especially the likes of basketball, GAA, rugby etc a weights program is vital in the off season... here is an extract from a basketball training guidelines website:


The above applies to the likes of GAA and rugby. I understand that skills need to be worked on but there is at least 10-11 months of the year when players are hitting the pitch developing skills and cardio fitness.

The 1-3 month break should be used to give the player a break from that and should be used to develop strength which will result in an improvement in their athletic skills.

What happens then, after the break, is that players are hungry for football when they come back training in Jan/Feb because they had that break from the field.

I guarantee that if the off/pre season was spent running up down the pitch with a ball; shooting and soloing with both feet as well as sprinting that you will find that players will get burnt out and bored because they didnt get a break and are training, doing the same thing with the ball for 12 months of the year. You cant ask a player to do that.

There is 9-11 months of the year where players are developing skills like that and the off season should be spent developing strength.

While I will say that weights to help increase strength are fine, a player shoul dbe getting enough physical conditioning via core exercises and pushups, sit ups etc etc in normal GAA type training to build up the kind of strength required - as basketball training or basketball games would not bring too much physicality to a person , well a tiny fraction of a percentage in comparison to a person playing /training at hurling/football.
Thats why the likes of basketball need weight training.
But basketball is good for footballers (and hurlers) for speed, agility and hand/eye coordination, peripheral vision etc.


you practise the football hurling skills to improve and also to maintain them , not solely to learn them.
But like in the real world, you always need to improve your skills and knowledge and should always keep taking courses or learning new things to keep up with the cutting edge of industry.
eg - jason sherlock couldnt kick points up until about two or three years ago (not consistently and he also didnt have the technique or perhaps power/timing from outside 30 yards) . Jayo has worked on this and in the past couple of years has visibly improved his skill at this.
Was he wrong to do so...? ...should he have better used his time in the gym?

[AbbeySider]

eg - jason sherlock couldnt kick points up until about two or three years ago (not consistently and he also didnt have the technique or perhaps power/timing from outside 30 yards) . Jayo has worked on this and in the past couple of years has visibly improved his skill at this.
Was he wrong to do so...? ...should he have better used his time in the gym?

Not disagreeing with anyone improving/learning a new skill. Id be encouraging that to no end. Another example of players developing their game is the likes of Alan Dillon and Conor Mortimor. Against Dublin in the All Ireland Semi in '96 we saw Conor kicking points with his right boot and it was remarked that when he was out injured for a while that season he practised kicking points off his right boot and developed that skill. No problem with that at all. Its what makes a player a great player. Adapting their game and learning new skills.

And im certainly not saying that you should be in the gym instead of developing skills. In a previous post I said that developing skills is very important. This thread is related to Off/Pre Season where I think the proper weight training is important.

Are you trying to say that Jayo didnt ever go to the gym at all and practised kicking points all day?

[lynchbhoy]

Are you trying to say that Jayo didnt ever go to the gym at all and practised kicking points all day?

no - I am saying tht too many fellas spend time in the gym and dont concentrate on improving, augmenting and maintaining their skills (you have to keep practising in oder to keep all these skills are an optimal standard. Developing new skills are a desireable almost requirement these days for a player to be as good as he can.

But too many lads make the mistake of thinking that pre season is heavy duty gym work - if you are serious about weights etc, it should be a program that is done all year round, with early season used for football skills - as this is the time of year where players are coming back from a lengthy lay off without playing and without as much training, so their football skills are at their lowest.

[AbbeySider]

a player shoul dbe getting enough physical conditioning via core exercises and pushups, sit ups etc etc in normal GAA type training to build up the kind of strength required

Id agree with the above statement while lads are U-16 and minor.
At club U-21 level right up to senior you need the addition of strength and conditioning that comes with off season training in the gym.

- as basketball training or basketball games would not bring too much physicality to a person , well a tiny fraction of a percentage in comparison to a person playing /training at hurling/football.
Thats why the likes of basketball need weight training.

I would disagree when you say that basketball would not bring too much physicality to a person. Basketball Power Forwards and Centers need to be fairly big and strong to hold off, play offensively, drive through cutting to the basket, protect the basket and get rebounds. Its a physical game.

So abbeysider you don't think that players should get a couple of months off training at all then???
You need 2/3 months off in my opinion to relax, let the body get over the stresses and strains from the season before starting back training....

Did the Dublin team, or even St Vincent's or Na Fianna ever use the winter months/Off season for some nice Rest and Relaxation or did they use it as a break from training on the field and improve strength and conditioning in the gym??


I thing we are going around in circles with this one guys... 

[lynchbhoy]

ok we will agree to disagree - basketball is not physical in the same way as gaeic football - I played basketball (badly) in the lower divisions of the dublin basketball league.

all players up until they retire need to keep practising - prev example is darts , snooker, golf - all skills can dip if not maintained, football and hurling are no different.

thats the prob abbeysider - the current thinking is to do gym work in in closed season - it doesnt mean its right.

as mentioned here before (this is boring but apologies) our club minor team who were perennial losers, trained on our new all weather pitch at skills and 'football football football '- all winter long and as a result they were fast out of the blocks and wiped the floor with all comers this season only losing once in the league when they were severely understrength due to flus and schools games taking players away. Traditionally our lads were told to go tothe gym and pound the weights. See the difference...

[AbbeySider]

no - I am saying tht too many fellas spend time in the gym and dont concentrate on improving, augmenting and maintaining their skills

Maybe some players do spend too much time in the gym but its not fair to ask anyone to play and practice skills all year around.
IMO You do need a break from it.

But too many lads make the mistake of thinking that pre season is heavy duty gym work - if you are serious about weights etc, it should be a program that is done all year round

Id disagree slightly there.
The weights program that you would be doing during the winter would differ substantially from the conditioning you do during the summer. I said that in a previous post.

with early season used for football skills - as this is the time of year where players are coming back from a lengthy lay off without playing and without as much training, so their football skills are at their lowest.

Thats exactly what I said here:

The 1-3 month break should be used to give the player a break from that and should be used to develop strength which will result in an improvement in their athletic skills.
What happens then, after the break, is that players are hungry for football when they come back training in Jan/Feb because they had that break from the field.

and here...

Obviously working on parts of the game like cardio fitness, all the skills, especially mixing the two will be more important in the coming months ahead and gyming will become less important.

[AbbeySider]

ok we will agree to disagree -

as mentioned here before (this is boring but apologies) our club minor team who were perennial losers, trained on our new all weather pitch at skills and 'football football football '- all winter long and as a result they were fast out of the blocks and wiped the floor with all comers this season only losing once in the league when they were severely understrength due to flus and schools games taking players away. Traditionally our lads were told to go tothe gym and pound the weights. See the difference...

I see where you are coming from with younger lads...

But thats exactly what I said here...

a player shoul dbe getting enough physical conditioning via core exercises and pushups, sit ups etc etc in normal GAA type training to build up the kind of strength required

Id agree with the above statement while lads are U-16 and minor.
At club U-21 level right up to senior you need the addition of strength and conditioning that comes with off season training in the gym.

[lynchbhoy]

[I see where you are coming from with younger lads...

But thats exactly what I said here...

yes, but that should extend to senior players not just kids
imo

[neilthemac]

very few club teams have lost games beause a player couldn't break a tackle, or hit a hard shoulder

they might have lost games because a player cannot pass or shoot accurately off both feet or have the movement and co-ordination skills to win a ball, get out of trouble or stick with/evade a marker

my opinion

strength training using own body resistance exercises and injuries are reduced.

[AbbeySider]

Anyway I promised my "Hot Yoga" story so here it goes... 

A couple of months ago "the Missus" decided to take up Hot Yoga. I was kind of intrigued because I know that some Inter County teams such as Kerry have dabbled in the likes of Yoga and Pilates so I became naturally interested. All I knew about it was that Yoga improved flexibility and had positive effects on muscles etc. After every session she came home describing how hard it is to hold some of the positions but I laughed it off and said "how hard can it be?".

I was met with a certain amount of reluctance when I suggested that I go to a session to see whats its like. I was told that the heat is incredible and its is very physically challenging. I scoffed and insisted and so I went to a session just before the Christmas.

It was one of the hardest things I have ever done. The room was heated to 105 degrees Fahrenheit which is 40 degrees Celsius. The session went on for about an hour and a half. It was one of the longest hour and 30 mins of my life. I found it really tough. Some of the squat holds and the stretches are near impossible. Not only are the stretches hard but the heat is sweltering and you are drenched in sweat throughout the session.

Because the room is so hot you can stretch even further because your muscles are so warm. Before I started I thought I was reasonably flexible but lets just say the session thought me a lot about myself. The Spinal and Upper-Body stretches I found especially tough and some of the squat holds I couldnt finish and had to break out of the routine a few times.

I would recommend it if you were out to improve on flexibility, posture, strength and relieve stress and tension or it can also help if someone was coming back from certain injury's. But its not for the faint hearted.
For my sins im giving it another go next week.