Things that make you go What the F**k?

[David McKeown]

For potentiall obvious reasons I'll make no comment about CRASH but I will say this.

I think the bigger issue is the insurance companies themselves. In the original example. Even if it hadn't gone through insurance but parties would be left with the choice of either commit a criminal offence or receive higher premiums for the next 6 years.

When it happened me and I wasn't at fault my premiums increased by about £2.5k over those 6 years. The justification being that I must be an inherently unlucky person to get driven into and therefore it was more likely to happen again.

Insurers will then do their upmost to escape their legal responsibilities to third parties often encouraging prosecutions for no insurance to be brought when an l driver is unaccompanied or somewhat is driving whilst disqualified or has forgotten to renew their licence.

Then when forced to meet these obligations they use this as an excuse to increase premiums on everyone to maximise profits.

Really the entire industry needs investigated.

[David McKeown]

Accident Management Companies are a scourge on insurance, and part of the reason costs are through the roof. They charge on anything, car hire, storage of vehicle, recovery, SOT fees etc. I've seen claims where storage costs in a disputed claim were in excess of the cars value by a considerable amount. And it is usually money for nothing.
If you can avoid using I would recommend it. Most TP insurers will try and sort you out directly these days if liability accepted. 
They're worse in England tho. I believe referral fees are still a thing over there, or at least they used to be.

I don't agree with this at all. Insurance companies do their best to weasel out of obligations. Accident Management Companies do a great job at protecting customers rights.

They only ultimately get what courts say plaintiffs are entitled too.

They do make profit from it but I don't accept that they cause price raises. If they did then how come insurance companies profits remain at record levels.  Why do these costs increase insurance premiums but looses made by insurance companies dealing with for example shipping claims or off sea oil companies claims or other claims that result in billions in pay outs not?

It's very easy for insurance companies to blame accident management companies and uninsured drivers as the reason for premiums being increased but the reality is very very different.

[Wildweasel74]

I got hit one time, was off work 6 weeks, so they claimed of the van who hit me , insurance for lost wages. Car hire, hospital claimed for me visting A&E.then Doctor assessment appointment,solicitor etc. Who done there best to put u off going to court, Now i was genuinely hurt and still sore back 7/8 yrs later but got very little out of it. and i say the whole thing cost 7/8 times what i received.

[mackers]

I dealt with a lady who was a nurse in Musgrave Park hospital.  She went out to her car after she came off duty one night.  The car was parked in a space with the front of the car pointing in.  She approached her car from the back and got into her car and reversed out. Members of the local travelling community had freewheeled in behind her car with the lights off so she couldn't see them and she reversed into them causing minimal damage to both cars (cracked lights at most).

As sure as night follows day she received a solicitor's letter a few weeks letter claiming personal injuries for £30,000.  She helped her insurance company defend the case all the way to court.  The judge awarded the claimants £1 to avoid an appeal which would have followed if he had of kicked the case out.

Her barrister told her to go back to her insurers and ask for her No Claims Bonus to be reinstated due to the fact that she had saved them £30,000 by helping them in the defence.

The insurance company, who are no longer in business, told her that they wouldn't do so and she was out hundreds of pounds in increased premiums.

[clonian]

Elderly father had a small accident, were he reversed into a parked vehicle. Tiny scratch on rear bumper of father's vehicle and small dent in rear panel of the other vehicle.
    Dad offered to get the dent fixed but young lad went ahead and put it through insurance. Used that CRASH crowd. Our insurance wrote back after it and gave us final figure that they paid out. Over £36k
    Actually still cant believe it.
Costs include credit hire, credit repair and solicitors costs.
    Parasites, really if we are being honest.

that is surprising as anything above the cost of the car they declare as write off as its cheaper then repairs and ongoing legal fees, what was the other car worth?

Crash would have milked it, courtesy car (that they provide) while your mans car getting fixed etc

If an insurance company appointed body shop get a non fault claim they'll take the piss completely. I clipped a guy in a jag jeep a couple of years ago. There was more damage to my car and it came back at £2,400 or in that region, new door and sprayed down the side. His came back at 7.5k and there wouldn't have been a panel replaced on his if it was the other way round.

Would there be quotes put out for tenders or is it just a closed shop whereas someone from an insurance company takes a bung from a local car repair dealer as that is scandalous

From the experience I have had if you claim off your own insurance you have to use their approved repair companies so they can keep control of costs and they'll only fix what's necessary. If you are the non blame party you can ask for whoever you want to do the repairs and if they can 'justify' the costs that's all that matters. If you say I want those panels and 2 doors replaced instead of fixing the existing ones there's not much you can do about it.

[Orior]

For potentiall obvious reasons I'll make no comment about CRASH but I will say this.

I think the bigger issue is the insurance companies themselves. In the original example. Even if it hadn't gone through insurance but parties would be left with the choice of either commit a criminal offence or receive higher premiums for the next 6 years.

When it happened me and I wasn't at fault my premiums increased by about £2.5k over those 6 years. The justification being that I must be an inherently unlucky person to get driven into and therefore it was more likely to happen again.

Insurers will then do their upmost to escape their legal responsibilities to third parties often encouraging prosecutions for no insurance to be brought when an l driver is unaccompanied or somewhat is driving whilst disqualified or has forgotten to renew their licence.

Then when forced to meet these obligations they use this as an excuse to increase premiums on everyone to maximise profits.

Really the entire industry needs investigated.

Reminds me of the old Paisley quote "I'VE NOTHING MORE TO SAY ABOUT THE MATTER! BUT LET ME SAY THIS..."

[grounded]

Elderly father had a small accident, were he reversed into a parked vehicle. Tiny scratch on rear bumper of father's vehicle and small dent in rear panel of the other vehicle.
    Dad offered to get the dent fixed but young lad went ahead and put it through insurance. Used that CRASH crowd. Our insurance wrote back after it and gave us final figure that they paid out. Over £36k
    Actually still cant believe it.
Costs include credit hire, credit repair and solicitors costs.
    Parasites, really if we are being honest.

that is surprising as anything above the cost of the car they declare as write off as its cheaper then repairs and ongoing legal fees, what was the other car worth?

I would say max 8k. BMW 3 series 2012 Small dent rear quarter panel.
  Young fella does have a new car now so I'm not sure did he have it written off.
  I think as others have said probably hire car and other add ons. I've been told people are being advised to claim for damage to car seats, laptops etc.
   As I said I think some people basically see it as free money without repercussions for the other party. In our case had fairly big effect on my dad and basically put him off the road.
 
 

[David McKeown]

I dealt with a lady who was a nurse in Musgrave Park hospital.  She went out to her car after she came off duty one night.  The car was parked in a space with the front of the car pointing in.  She approached her car from the back and got into her car and reversed out. Members of the local travelling community had freewheeled in behind her car with the lights off so she couldn't see them and she reversed into them causing minimal damage to both cars (cracked lights at most).

As sure as night follows day she received a solicitor's letter a few weeks letter claiming personal injuries for £30,000.  She helped her insurance company defend the case all the way to court.  The judge awarded the claimants £1 to avoid an appeal which would have followed if he had of kicked the case out.

Her barrister told her to go back to her insurers and ask for her No Claims Bonus to be reinstated due to the fact that she had saved them £30,000 by helping them in the defence.

The insurance company, who are no longer in business, told her that they wouldn't do so and she was out hundreds of pounds in increased premiums.

I don't really think the £1 would have made an appeal any less likely

Also her insurance premium would have increased even if she won. That's by choice of the insurance company.

[David McKeown]

Elderly father had a small accident, were he reversed into a parked vehicle. Tiny scratch on rear bumper of father's vehicle and small dent in rear panel of the other vehicle.
    Dad offered to get the dent fixed but young lad went ahead and put it through insurance. Used that CRASH crowd. Our insurance wrote back after it and gave us final figure that they paid out. Over £36k
    Actually still cant believe it.
Costs include credit hire, credit repair and solicitors costs.
    Parasites, really if we are being honest.

that is surprising as anything above the cost of the car they declare as write off as its cheaper then repairs and ongoing legal fees, what was the other car worth?

I would say max 8k. BMW 3 series 2012 Small dent rear quarter panel.
  Young fella does have a new car now so I'm not sure did he have it written off.
  I think as others have said probably hire car and other add ons. I've been told people are being advised to claim for damage to car seats, laptops etc.
   As I said I think some people basically see it as free money without repercussions for the other party. In our case had fairly big effect on my dad and basically put him off the road.
 
 

From the young fellas point of view he's in between a rock and a hard place. If he doesn't report it and they find out which is highly likely he's facing potentially very large cost implications down the line because of how insurers operate.

So I have a lot of sympathy for both parties here.

[grounded]

Elderly father had a small accident, were he reversed into a parked vehicle. Tiny scratch on rear bumper of father's vehicle and small dent in rear panel of the other vehicle.
    Dad offered to get the dent fixed but young lad went ahead and put it through insurance. Used that CRASH crowd. Our insurance wrote back after it and gave us final figure that they paid out. Over £36k
    Actually still cant believe it.
Costs include credit hire, credit repair and solicitors costs.
    Parasites, really if we are being honest.

that is surprising as anything above the cost of the car they declare as write off as its cheaper then repairs and ongoing legal fees, what was the other car worth?

I would say max 8k. BMW 3 series 2012 Small dent rear quarter panel.
  Young fella does have a new car now so I'm not sure did he have it written off.
  I think as others have said probably hire car and other add ons. I've been told people are being advised to claim for damage to car seats, laptops etc.
   As I said I think some people basically see it as free money without repercussions for the other party. In our case had fairly big effect on my dad and basically put him off the road.
 
 

From the young fellas point of view he's in between a rock and a hard place. If he doesn't report it and they find out which is highly likely he's facing potentially very large cost implications down the line because of how insurers operate.

So I have a lot of sympathy for both parties here.

David, maybe I'm missing something, but if we had of paid his mechanic/body man to repair the car, how would anybody find out about that?
     Surely neither party would be informing their insurance provider, sure that's the whole point of paying it yourself so they dont find out and your premiums aren't affected.
     I suppose I can sort of understand going through insurance for a bigger repair( this was I'm not kidding an egg size dent) or maybe in a different area were you worried the other party mighn't pay. But in a small rural village were both parties are well known to one another it's hard to understand.
      No the main thrust of my post anyway, but was trying to highlight the absolute absurdity of a 36k cost for this.
   
   

[tintin25]

Elderly father had a small accident, were he reversed into a parked vehicle. Tiny scratch on rear bumper of father's vehicle and small dent in rear panel of the other vehicle.
    Dad offered to get the dent fixed but young lad went ahead and put it through insurance. Used that CRASH crowd. Our insurance wrote back after it and gave us final figure that they paid out. Over £36k
    Actually still cant believe it.
Costs include credit hire, credit repair and solicitors costs.
    Parasites, really if we are being honest.

that is surprising as anything above the cost of the car they declare as write off as its cheaper then repairs and ongoing legal fees, what was the other car worth?

I would say max 8k. BMW 3 series 2012 Small dent rear quarter panel.
  Young fella does have a new car now so I'm not sure did he have it written off.
  I think as others have said probably hire car and other add ons. I've been told people are being advised to claim for damage to car seats, laptops etc.
   As I said I think some people basically see it as free money without repercussions for the other party. In our case had fairly big effect on my dad and basically put him off the road.
 
 

From the young fellas point of view he's in between a rock and a hard place. If he doesn't report it and they find out which is highly likely he's facing potentially very large cost implications down the line because of how insurers operate.

So I have a lot of sympathy for both parties here.

David, maybe I'm missing something, but if we had of paid his mechanic/body man to repair the car, how would anybody find out about that?
     Surely neither party would be informing their insurance provider, sure that's the whole point of paying it yourself so they dont find out and your premiums aren't affected.
     I suppose I can sort of understand going through insurance for a bigger repair( this was I'm not kidding an egg size dent) or maybe in a different area were you worried the other party mighn't pay. But in a small rural village were both parties are well known to one another it's hard to understand.
      No the main thrust of my post anyway, but was trying to highlight the absolute absurdity of a 36k cost for this.
   
   

I guess if he agrees to settle privately and doesn't report it he's taking a risk too. In these situations there is nothing to stop the other driver going to their insurer later on and giving a different version of events - not saying that would have happened in your case but it does happen.

It probably reflects the way things are now - people are less willing to rely on trust and more likely to protect their own position at all costs.

[trueblue1234]

Accident Management Companies are a scourge on insurance, and part of the reason costs are through the roof. They charge on anything, car hire, storage of vehicle, recovery, SOT fees etc. I've seen claims where storage costs in a disputed claim were in excess of the cars value by a considerable amount. And it is usually money for nothing.
If you can avoid using I would recommend it. Most TP insurers will try and sort you out directly these days if liability accepted. 
They're worse in England tho. I believe referral fees are still a thing over there, or at least they used to be.

I don't agree with this at all. Insurance companies do their best to weasel out of obligations. Accident Management Companies do a great job at protecting customers rights.

They only ultimately get what courts say plaintiffs are entitled too.

They do make profit from it but I don't accept that they cause price raises. If they did then how come insurance companies profits remain at record levels.  Why do these costs increase insurance premiums but looses made by insurance companies dealing with for example shipping claims or off sea oil companies claims or other claims that result in billions in pay outs not?

It's very easy for insurance companies to blame accident management companies and uninsured drivers as the reason for premiums being increased but the reality is very very different.

I won't be standing up for any insurance companies but there is no doubt that accident management companies increase the average settlement in claims they're involved with. When I worked in the industry we had the average different in claims settled directly with the TP insurer and when a AMC was involved and it was a significant increase. Accident management companies are well known for their attempts at slowing down settlement of claims to allow for increased Storage or Hire costs. Even if a claimant is not at fault there is a legal obligation to mitigate their losses. That doesn't happen via AMC's as they make more money on the back of delayed claims. I've been involved in cases were the insurance company has successfully disputed overlong hire periods due to a lack of mitigation of costs by the AMC. And this was back when the AMCs could pursue their client in the event of none recovery from the TPI. I believe that's changed now though.
I have no doubt insurance companies take the piss. But AMC are a curse as well.

[David McKeown]

Elderly father had a small accident, were he reversed into a parked vehicle. Tiny scratch on rear bumper of father's vehicle and small dent in rear panel of the other vehicle.
    Dad offered to get the dent fixed but young lad went ahead and put it through insurance. Used that CRASH crowd. Our insurance wrote back after it and gave us final figure that they paid out. Over £36k
    Actually still cant believe it.
Costs include credit hire, credit repair and solicitors costs.
    Parasites, really if we are being honest.

that is surprising as anything above the cost of the car they declare as write off as its cheaper then repairs and ongoing legal fees, what was the other car worth?

I would say max 8k. BMW 3 series 2012 Small dent rear quarter panel.
  Young fella does have a new car now so I'm not sure did he have it written off.
  I think as others have said probably hire car and other add ons. I've been told people are being advised to claim for damage to car seats, laptops etc.
  As I said I think some people basically see it as free money without repercussions for the other party. In our case had fairly big effect on my dad and basically put him off the road.
 
 

From the young fellas point of view he's in between a rock and a hard place. If he doesn't report it and they find out which is highly likely he's facing potentially very large cost implications down the line because of how insurers operate.

So I have a lot of sympathy for both parties here.

David, maybe I'm missing something, but if we had of paid his mechanic/body man to repair the car, how would anybody find out about that?
    Surely neither party would be informing their insurance provider, sure that's the whole point of paying it yourself so they dont find out and your premiums aren't affected.
    I suppose I can sort of understand going through insurance for a bigger repair( this was I'm not kidding an egg size dent) or maybe in a different area were you worried the other party mighn't pay. But in a small rural village were both parties are well known to one another it's hard to understand.
      No the main thrust of my post anyway, but was trying to highlight the absolute absurdity of a 36k cost for this.
   
 

Insurers are obviously aware this happens so have systems in place to detect it. The biggest system is the incentives they offer repairers to report jobs done for cash. Some repairers can benefit greatly from these incentives and are happy to comply. They obviously have other ways of finding out that are less obvious.  It's happened to both my mother in law and sister in law in recent years one in the north and one in the south. They paid privately for sub £500 repairs. Then received letters after the next renewal querying the repair and why it wasn't disclosed. Result one insurance was cancelled leading to increased premiums. The other just resulted in slightly increased premiums.

In addition is not uncommon if there is a subsequent accident for a loss adjuster to query why a previous repair was done and not disclosed.

It's becoming very common in the criminal sphere in the north for insurers to hold the information of a previous undeclared accident up their sleeve then when there is an accident claim the insurer will tell PSNI insurance is invalid and the driver has no insurance (no basis in law for this) or that the policy was obtained fraudulently.

Given that you are legally obligated to report to the police any accident that causes injury to another person or damage to someone else's property and you are legally obligated to declare 6 year accident history even when not at fault I can see why others wouldn't want to take the risk. Even if the person at fault is acting with the best of intentions there's always a risk

[David McKeown]

Accident Management Companies are a scourge on insurance, and part of the reason costs are through the roof. They charge on anything, car hire, storage of vehicle, recovery, SOT fees etc. I've seen claims where storage costs in a disputed claim were in excess of the cars value by a considerable amount. And it is usually money for nothing.
If you can avoid using I would recommend it. Most TP insurers will try and sort you out directly these days if liability accepted. 
They're worse in England tho. I believe referral fees are still a thing over there, or at least they used to be.

I don't agree with this at all. Insurance companies do their best to weasel out of obligations. Accident Management Companies do a great job at protecting customers rights.

They only ultimately get what courts say plaintiffs are entitled too.

They do make profit from it but I don't accept that they cause price raises. If they did then how come insurance companies profits remain at record levels.  Why do these costs increase insurance premiums but looses made by insurance companies dealing with for example shipping claims or off sea oil companies claims or other claims that result in billions in pay outs not?

It's very easy for insurance companies to blame accident management companies and uninsured drivers as the reason for premiums being increased but the reality is very very different.

I won't be standing up for any insurance companies but there is no doubt that accident management companies increase the average settlement in claims they're involved with. When I worked in the industry we had the average different in claims settled directly with the TP insurer and when a AMC was involved and it was a significant increase. Accident management companies are well known for their attempts at slowing down settlement of claims to allow for increased Storage or Hire costs. Even if a claimant is not at fault there is a legal obligation to mitigate their losses. That doesn't happen via AMC's as they make more money on the back of delayed claims. I've been involved in cases were the insurance company has successfully disputed overlong hire periods due to a lack of mitigation of costs by the AMC. And this was back when the AMCs could pursue their client in the event of none recovery from the TPI. I believe that's changed now though.
I have no doubt insurance companies take the piss. But AMC are a curse as well.

There's no doubt they increase the cost but often you aren't making a direct comparison.

For example AMC will maximise what their clients get. I had a bad accident in 2017. I used an AMC and had my shell of a car recovered immediately. A hire car within days I was being seen by a physio. Within weeks I was being seen by a psychiatrist. MRI within a short time once it was needed. All provided at no cost to me. These were things I simply wouldn't have been able to afford and or wouldn't have thought of at the time.  They got me a significantly increased claim. Where there costs in there that were questionable?  I would have thought so but they put in a lot of work that I didn't have to so I think it's right they should be compensated. Also the insurer has every right to challenge any costs not deemed appropriate. They didn't in my case but do in plenty of others.

At the time my insurer offered me their legal cover which suggested I settle the case for 20% of what it was worth and on a 50:50 basis despite the fact I couldn't have been any less responsible.

Are AMC ideal?  Absolutely not.  Are they good for customers? Absolutely. Are they increasing premiums? I'm unconvinced. Or at least not to the extent claimed and it's difficult to see how plaintiffs could be properly and correctly catered for without them.

[grounded]

Elderly father had a small accident, were he reversed into a parked vehicle. Tiny scratch on rear bumper of father's vehicle and small dent in rear panel of the other vehicle.
    Dad offered to get the dent fixed but young lad went ahead and put it through insurance. Used that CRASH crowd. Our insurance wrote back after it and gave us final figure that they paid out. Over £36k
    Actually still cant believe it.
Costs include credit hire, credit repair and solicitors costs.
    Parasites, really if we are being honest.

that is surprising as anything above the cost of the car they declare as write off as its cheaper then repairs and ongoing legal fees, what was the other car worth?

I would say max 8k. BMW 3 series 2012 Small dent rear quarter panel.
  Young fella does have a new car now so I'm not sure did he have it written off.
  I think as others have said probably hire car and other add ons. I've been told people are being advised to claim for damage to car seats, laptops etc.
  As I said I think some people basically see it as free money without repercussions for the other party. In our case had fairly big effect on my dad and basically put him off the road.
 
 

From the young fellas point of view he's in between a rock and a hard place. If he doesn't report it and they find out which is highly likely he's facing potentially very large cost implications down the line because of how insurers operate.

So I have a lot of sympathy for both parties here.

David, maybe I'm missing something, but if we had of paid his mechanic/body man to repair the car, how would anybody find out about that?
    Surely neither party would be informing their insurance provider, sure that's the whole point of paying it yourself so they dont find out and your premiums aren't affected.
    I suppose I can sort of understand going through insurance for a bigger repair( this was I'm not kidding an egg size dent) or maybe in a different area were you worried the other party mighn't pay. But in a small rural village were both parties are well known to one another it's hard to understand.
      No the main thrust of my post anyway, but was trying to highlight the absolute absurdity of a 36k cost for this.
   
 

Insurers are obviously aware this happens so have systems in place to detect it. The biggest system is the incentives they offer repairers to report jobs done for cash. Some repairers can benefit greatly from these incentives and are happy to comply. They obviously have other ways of finding out that are less obvious.  It's happened to both my mother in law and sister in law in recent years one in the north and one in the south. They paid privately for sub £500 repairs. Then received letters after the next renewal querying the repair and why it wasn't disclosed. Result one insurance was cancelled leading to increased premiums. The other just resulted in slightly increased premiums.

In addition is not uncommon if there is a subsequent accident for a loss adjuster to query why a previous repair was done and not disclosed.

It's becoming very common in the criminal sphere in the north for insurers to hold the information of a previous undeclared accident up their sleeve then when there is an accident claim the insurer will tell PSNI insurance is invalid and the driver has no insurance (no basis in law for this) or that the policy was obtained fraudulently.

Given that you are legally obligated to report to the police any accident that causes injury to another person or damage to someone else's property and you are legally obligated to declare 6 year accident history even when not at fault I can see why others wouldn't want to take the risk. Even if the person at fault is acting with the best of intentions there's always a risk

I wasn't aware of the fact that you must autommatically report to police any accident that caused damaged to another
person's property. I thought you are obliged to report to police in the case were you cant contact the person/exchange details.
   So if I reverse into neighbours fence by accident, get hold of the neighbour and tell him I'm going to fix the fence, I still must contact the police to report the incident, is that the law David?