After the Darren Graham Affair is settled

[Evil Genius]

EG i'm not jumping on the "We in the GAA are perfect and if the "prods" don't like it they can change" bandwagon . I've made my feelings clear on this issue a number of times but i wondering do you support/follow your county at all,if yes ever been to a match?

No, I don't support my county, nor have I been to a match, though I do follow their progress casually through the papers etc. Then again, as a bit of a sports nut generally, I'll watch pro-celebrity Log Rolling or Underwater Basket Weaving on Satellite at 2 am in the morning, if there's a bit of local interest!

That said, I would not be averse to attending a GAA game, nor fear receiving anything other than a warm welcome if I did. Nor would I allow e.g. the Darren Graham affair to put me off. But I do have specific reservations towards the way GAA mixes sport with politics. And more generally, in the NI context, I see GAA as something which Catholics/Nationalists do, in the same way as e.g. Americans play Baseball or the English Upper Classes play Polo or race yachts etc: "Good for them, but it's not for me".

[Sky Blue]

I have to say that Evil Genius makes some very good points and I largely agree with him. But which names of cups/grounds/clubs are we talking about? I know there's a hurling club in the North named after one of the hunger strikers - Kevin Lynch. I think they changed their name when he died because he used to play for them. I can see why that would offend unionists/Protestants. Are there any others?

I'm not aware of any other clubs called after what unionist would call a "Provo Terrorist". Is the Sam Maguire cup offensive? Casement Park - should it be renamed?
I can understand where you are comming from and I'd love to accommodate you but please explain exactly where the line is? Is it OK to call a team Patrick Sarsfield's, John Michel's or Wolfe Tones? Which club names are particularly offensive?
Which cups or competitions should be re-named and which grounds?

[Evil Genius]

The 2nd point would be a little more tricky even though your suggestion sounds like a good compromise.  However, even with your compromise, how may clubs, trophies, tournaments, etc, are named after people or events of the last say 30 years. Very few i would say and none that i can think of outside the 6 counties.

It doesn't really matter that it's only a handful of clubs, cups, stadia etc which are so named, nor that they are really only in Ulster (though that is more "in your face" for Unionists than if we were talking about the other Provinces).

As I've tried to say before, no other sport that I know of anywhere else in the world quite mixes a political ethos with a sporting one quite like GAA does. Of course, I understand that 90%+ of GAA fans are only there for the sport; however, that means they don't even appear to see the political aspect, never mind have any comprehension just how difficult such symbolism makes it for people from the Unionist community in NI to feel accepted or wanted.

[magickingdom]

Evil genius, why do you have over 700 posts on a gaa board?

in fairness to eg he makes a lot of valid points imo.

As i said  EG you can have your opinion but i will be paying no heed to it   

cousre u will, bet your reading everyone of them...

[Evil Genius]

I agree  the name issue is the most difficult , would Na Fianna, Wolfe Tones or Parnells be ok ??

On the basis that there has to be a degree of compromise, I personally would accept the "liftime test" for acceptability i.e. Tone, Parnell, Casement etc were all long before my time, so who gives a shit, when it comes down to it.

More generally, those Unionists who are politically activist may well have problems with such names; then again, they tend to have a problem with a whole host of things (swimming on Sundays, alcohol, marching through Nationalist areas etc), so I personally wouldn't allow them to set my Agenda!

That said, I am sure the average Unionist probably cannot pronounce Na Fianna, never mind know that it's where the term "Fenian" derives. The Wolfe Tones are just some rebel band that plays fiddly-dee music and mopes about the Famine. And as for Charles Stewart Parnell, they probably haven't a clue. But that's just a reflection of how each community only knows and reveres its "own" history. How many Nationalists could tell you who Schomberg or Governor Walker were, or what date the Battle of the Somme commenced?

If I had a pound for everytime a GAA fan pointed out that Sam Maguire was a Prod, I'd be very rich, indeed. But so what? More informed Unionists will know that he was also in the IRB, which is much more pertinent for them, and less informed Unionists will neither know nor care who he was.

[the Deel Rover]

Evil genius, why do you have over 700 posts on a gaa board?

in fairness to eg he makes a lot of valid points imo.

As i said  EG you can have your opinion but i will be paying no heed to it   

cousre u will, bet your reading everyone of them...

no i won't magickingdom i only read posts written by people who play and love our gaelic games

[Evil Genius]

Evil Genius i congragulate you on your structured,reasoned,civilised contribution to this debate, and i find it interesting that you did include the playing of games on a Sunday as a possible barrier to Protestant participation. Was this just an over-sight on your part, or do you not forsee this could be a problem

Sunday Observance is an issue for a section of the Protestant/Unionist community, but notwithstanding that their influence sometimes outweighs their numbers, they are still a minority (and a declining one, at that, I'd guess).

Frankly, those self-same people are also opposed to soccer, rugby, cricket and anything much more than breathing and singing hymns on a Sunday, so who cares?

On a wider note, I can't see that GAA on Sunday in itself would cause major problems for your average Prod/Unionist. If anything, it helps that it doesn't clash with soccer, rugby etc for which Saturday is the traditional day, just as the GAA Summer Season doesn't clash with the winter season for soccer, rugby etc.

If anything, I'd hazard that it is the counter attraction of English soccer on TV on Sundays, or shopping, gardening, golf, visiting the seaside etc which would cause more problems for the GAA in attracting Unionists, than the fact that GAA is traditionally played on Sundays.

[Evil Genius]

As i said  EG you can have your opinion but i will be paying no heed to it   

Until your posts caused me to Google it, I had never even heard of Crossmolina.

But if you are typical of the inhabitants, I won't go out of my way to visit, should I ever be in the area...

[Evil Genius]

Evil genius, why do you have over 700 posts on a gaa board?

http://www.onesmallstepcampaign.org

[thejuice]

Hi EG.

Im sure your getting tired of answering all these questions and Im sure like myself, your supposed to be working,

anyway my question is would the playing of Amhrain Na bhFiann and the flying of the Tricolour be another obvious sticking point. Since i've always grown up with it, I didnt think of it as anything unusual, but I think that Gaelic games are the only ones that do this on a week in week out basis.

ie: star spangled banner is only sang before the Superbowl and i thnk the NFC and AFC championship games.

[the Deel Rover]

As i said  EG you can have your opinion but i will be paying no heed to it   

Until your posts caused me to Google it, I had never even heard of Crossmolina.

But if you are typical of the inhabitants, I won't go out of my way to visit, should I ever be in the area...

Well if you ever pass by make sure you drop in for a game of football and i'll introduce you to my protestant friends who can tell you of their experience of playing Gaelic Games, i'm lucky Eg i live in a place where religon doesn't matter
By the way eg i hope the name of our team doesn't offend you i wouldn't be able to sleep at night with worry

[A Quinn Martin Production]

Some intertesting views expressed by Colm Bradley on the Darren Graham affair.  Here's what he had to say in the Fermanagh Herald on 01/08/2007 in an article about the Dubs about off the ball stuff,sledging, goading, verbals etc:

Fermanagh Herald August 1st 2007

The poor misunderstood Dubs

Come on yiz boyz in blue, come on yiz boyz in blue, come on yiz boyz, come on yiz boyz in blue.'

Ah, the Dubs. The poor old Dubs. They have never enjoyed much support outside the capital but this year it seems that they have managed to get under the skin of the rest of the GAA population like never before.

And it is not just their players that are getting up peoples noses. The fans have done their bit too. Strolling in to Croke Park a few minutes after throw in time, 'Arra sure yiz can't start the bleedin game without us,' seems to be their attitude. And they probably have a point, the atmosphere would not be the same without the craic on the hill but they should perhaps have one drink less before the game and show a little more respect for those who turn up on time.

But anyway, enough about the fans, its the actions of the players that has most enraged the GAA populace. In their recent Leinster final victory against Laois three or four Dublin players were seen to goad the Laois players as the game came to a close. They pointed to the scoreboard, gave sarcastic waves 'bye bye' to the Laois lads and taunted them with the a three fingered salute telling them how many Leinster titles they had won. As I watched all this goading, I just knew that journalists were sharpening their pencils and analysts were clearing their throats. With the match being pretty one sided the behaviour of the Dublin players was now going to be the number one story.

And sure enough the analysts had their say that night and the papers went to town on it the next day. You see, everything the Dubs do is exaggerated. A good performance always becomes a great performance while a below par showing will be reported as shambolic. Reading some of the comment concerning the goading of Laois players you would have been forgiven for thinking that the Dublin boys had committed crimes against the very ethos of the GAA and furthermore that they were the first people ever to commit them.

Trash talking, sledging, or whatever else you want to call it happens all over the country. It is part of the GAA, we may not like it but it's a fact. Is it nice? No. Would it be better if it did not occur? Yes. But what we must take into account is the fact that a player who resorts to this type of goading has rarely been unprovoked.

I can tell you after getting your ribs boxed off you for 55 minutes there is nothing more satisfying than turning to your marker and pointing at the scoreboard when you know victory is assured. I'm not saying the Laois lads were engaging in off the ball violence but without the full story perhaps we should not be too quick to judge the Dublin fellas'.

Unfortunately there is an unwritten rule within the GAA that violence is OK. If you don't believe me ask yourself this question. Is it more acceptable to give a guy a few 'skelps' to the kidneys or to taunt him after kicking a score that puts the game beyond doubt? Be honest with yourselves!

I think most would favour the former tactic. Off the ball stuff is part of the Association and to be brutally honest there has never been enough done in my opinion to stamp it out. Umpires stand like dummies while players get pulled, hauled, boxed and kicked. Sure haven't we often heard the old chestnut that a corner back would never be good enough because he was not dirty enough or that other famous line of thought that advises a back to hit his forward a few wallops early on to put him out of the game.

It always makes me laugh that a bit of taunting is seen as the worst crime in the world but off the ball violence is accepted by so many Gaels.

But going back to the Dubs, it was the actions of their manager, Pillar Caffrey, that I found to be the most insulting. What goes on once players cross the white line is one thing but for a manager to act in the way Pillar did in the last ten minutes of the game was in my mind much more insulting that anything his players did.

Grinning like a Cheshire cat he made a few substitutions in the last ten minutes. As he greeted the players coming off he embraced them with high five's and hugs. He then proceeded to get his son down from the stands to enjoy the final whistle with him. Now, fair play to him for wanting to enjoy this special moment with his son but I felt that it only rubbed Laois's face in it.

With a quarter final tie with Derry to come the vast majority of the country will be hoping the Oak Leaf men can beat them. The Dubs have become the team everyone loves to hate, but they can play football and are serious All Ireland contenders. Can you imagine the smile on Pillar's face if they manage to lift Sam; it might even stay for the post match interview!

[Gnevin]

Some intertesting views expressed by Colm Bradley on the Darren Graham affair.  Here's what he had to say in the Fermanagh Herald on 01/08/2007 in an article about the Dubs about off the ball stuff,sledging, goading, verbals etc:

Fermanagh Herald August 1st 2007

The poor misunderstood Dubs

Come on yiz boyz in blue, come on yiz boyz in blue, come on yiz boyz, come on yiz boyz in blue.'

Ah, the Dubs. The poor old Dubs. They have never enjoyed much support outside the capital but this year it seems that they have managed to get under the skin of the rest of the GAA population like never before.

And it is not just their players that are getting up peoples noses. The fans have done their bit too. Strolling in to Croke Park a few minutes after throw in time, 'Arra sure yiz can't start the bleedin game without us,' seems to be their attitude. And they probably have a point, the atmosphere would not be the same without the craic on the hill but they should perhaps have one drink less before the game and show a little more respect for those who turn up on time.

But anyway, enough about the fans, its the actions of the players that has most enraged the GAA populace. In their recent Leinster final victory against Laois three or four Dublin players were seen to goad the Laois players as the game came to a close. They pointed to the scoreboard, gave sarcastic waves 'bye bye' to the Laois lads and taunted them with the a three fingered salute telling them how many Leinster titles they had won. As I watched all this goading, I just knew that journalists were sharpening their pencils and analysts were clearing their throats. With the match being pretty one sided the behaviour of the Dublin players was now going to be the number one story.

And sure enough the analysts had their say that night and the papers went to town on it the next day. You see, everything the Dubs do is exaggerated. A good performance always becomes a great performance while a below par showing will be reported as shambolic. Reading some of the comment concerning the goading of Laois players you would have been forgiven for thinking that the Dublin boys had committed crimes against the very ethos of the GAA and furthermore that they were the first people ever to commit them.

Trash talking, sledging, or whatever else you want to call it happens all over the country. It is part of the GAA, we may not like it but it's a fact. Is it nice? No. Would it be better if it did not occur? Yes. But what we must take into account is the fact that a player who resorts to this type of goading has rarely been unprovoked.

I can tell you after getting your ribs boxed off you for 55 minutes there is nothing more satisfying than turning to your marker and pointing at the scoreboard when you know victory is assured. I'm not saying the Laois lads were engaging in off the ball violence but without the full story perhaps we should not be too quick to judge the Dublin fellas'.

Unfortunately there is an unwritten rule within the GAA that violence is OK. If you don't believe me ask yourself this question. Is it more acceptable to give a guy a few 'skelps' to the kidneys or to taunt him after kicking a score that puts the game beyond doubt? Be honest with yourselves!

I think most would favour the former tactic. Off the ball stuff is part of the Association and to be brutally honest there has never been enough done in my opinion to stamp it out. Umpires stand like dummies while players get pulled, hauled, boxed and kicked. Sure haven't we often heard the old chestnut that a corner back would never be good enough because he was not dirty enough or that other famous line of thought that advises a back to hit his forward a few wallops early on to put him out of the game.

It always makes me laugh that a bit of taunting is seen as the worst crime in the world but off the ball violence is accepted by so many Gaels.

But going back to the Dubs, it was the actions of their manager, Pillar Caffrey, that I found to be the most insulting. What goes on once players cross the white line is one thing but for a manager to act in the way Pillar did in the last ten minutes of the game was in my mind much more insulting that anything his players did.

Grinning like a Cheshire cat he made a few substitutions in the last ten minutes. As he greeted the players coming off he embraced them with high five's and hugs. He then proceeded to get his son down from the stands to enjoy the final whistle with him. Now, fair play to him for wanting to enjoy this special moment with his son but I felt that it only rubbed Laois's face in it.

With a quarter final tie with Derry to come the vast majority of the country will be hoping the Oak Leaf men can beat them. The Dubs have become the team everyone loves to hate, but they can play football and are serious All Ireland contenders. Can you imagine the smile on Pillar's face if they manage to lift Sam; it might even stay for the post match interview!

Good read but whats this got to do with Graham?

[Evil Genius]

Hi EG.

Im sure your getting tired of answering all these questions and Im sure like myself, your supposed to be working,

anyway my question is would the playing of Amhrain Na bhFiann and the flying of the Tricolour be another obvious sticking point. Since i've always grown up with it, I didnt think of it as anything unusual, but I think that Gaelic games are the only ones that do this on a week in week out basis.

ie: star spangled banner is only sang before the Superbowl and i thnk the NFC and AFC championship games.

Oh yeah, I'd kinda forgotten those! I'd have to say, if Unionists are going to be attracted to GAA in any significant numbers, then it will only be when GAA drops its traditionally Nationalist ethos. As such, the Tricolour and Anthem are integral parts of that ethos.

Frankly, I can't see any way the Unionist identity could also be reflected alongside the Nationalist one at GAA games, nor should it, even were it possible (imo), since I don't like "branding" people, nor mixing politics and sport.

The best solution I've seen is to follow the example of Cricket, which doesn't have any anthems before games and which in the Irish context merely flies the flag of the Irish Cricket Union.

Alternatively, at GAA games it might be workable to fly the respective Provincial Flags of the teams playing, plus perhaps a specially commissioned GAA Flag, if Central Council insisted.

Similarly for anthems, perhaps each province might have its own, non-political song ("Danny Boy" for Ulster?), and the GAA could commission its own equivalent to rugby's "Ireland's Call"?

On reflection, I've no doubt that the prospect of dropping the Soldiers Song and Tricolour will shock, even appall, many otherwise apolitical GAA fans, since they are a cherished part of GAA tradition. But the sky didn't fall in when GSTQ was played for the England Rugby Team at Croke Park a few months back, so I doubt it would scupper GAA entirely to have to select a new song or flag.

Anyhow, at the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, such issues merely highlight the choice which is facing the GAA. That is, it may embrace Nationalism, or embrace Unionists, but not both at the same time.

[A Quinn Martin Production]

Some intertesting views expressed by Colm Bradley on the Darren Graham affair.  Here's what he had to say in the Fermanagh Herald on 01/08/2007 in an article about the Dubs about off the ball stuff,sledging, goading, verbals etc:

Fermanagh Herald August 1st 2007

The poor misunderstood Dubs

Come on yiz boyz in blue, come on yiz boyz in blue, come on yiz boyz, come on yiz boyz in blue.'

Ah, the Dubs. The poor old Dubs. They have never enjoyed much support outside the capital but this year it seems that they have managed to get under the skin of the rest of the GAA population like never before.

And it is not just their players that are getting up peoples noses. The fans have done their bit too. Strolling in to Croke Park a few minutes after throw in time, 'Arra sure yiz can't start the bleedin game without us,' seems to be their attitude. And they probably have a point, the atmosphere would not be the same without the craic on the hill but they should perhaps have one drink less before the game and show a little more respect for those who turn up on time.

But anyway, enough about the fans, its the actions of the players that has most enraged the GAA populace. In their recent Leinster final victory against Laois three or four Dublin players were seen to goad the Laois players as the game came to a close. They pointed to the scoreboard, gave sarcastic waves 'bye bye' to the Laois lads and taunted them with the a three fingered salute telling them how many Leinster titles they had won. As I watched all this goading, I just knew that journalists were sharpening their pencils and analysts were clearing their throats. With the match being pretty one sided the behaviour of the Dublin players was now going to be the number one story.

And sure enough the analysts had their say that night and the papers went to town on it the next day. You see, everything the Dubs do is exaggerated. A good performance always becomes a great performance while a below par showing will be reported as shambolic. Reading some of the comment concerning the goading of Laois players you would have been forgiven for thinking that the Dublin boys had committed crimes against the very ethos of the GAA and furthermore that they were the first people ever to commit them.

Trash talking, sledging, or whatever else you want to call it happens all over the country. It is part of the GAA, we may not like it but it's a fact. Is it nice? No. Would it be better if it did not occur? Yes. But what we must take into account is the fact that a player who resorts to this type of goading has rarely been unprovoked.

I can tell you after getting your ribs boxed off you for 55 minutes there is nothing more satisfying than turning to your marker and pointing at the scoreboard when you know victory is assured. I'm not saying the Laois lads were engaging in off the ball violence but without the full story perhaps we should not be too quick to judge the Dublin fellas'.

Unfortunately there is an unwritten rule within the GAA that violence is OK. If you don't believe me ask yourself this question. Is it more acceptable to give a guy a few 'skelps' to the kidneys or to taunt him after kicking a score that puts the game beyond doubt? Be honest with yourselves!

I think most would favour the former tactic. Off the ball stuff is part of the Association and to be brutally honest there has never been enough done in my opinion to stamp it out. Umpires stand like dummies while players get pulled, hauled, boxed and kicked. Sure haven't we often heard the old chestnut that a corner back would never be good enough because he was not dirty enough or that other famous line of thought that advises a back to hit his forward a few wallops early on to put him out of the game.

It always makes me laugh that a bit of taunting is seen as the worst crime in the world but off the ball violence is accepted by so many Gaels.

But going back to the Dubs, it was the actions of their manager, Pillar Caffrey, that I found to be the most insulting. What goes on once players cross the white line is one thing but for a manager to act in the way Pillar did in the last ten minutes of the game was in my mind much more insulting that anything his players did.

Grinning like a Cheshire cat he made a few substitutions in the last ten minutes. As he greeted the players coming off he embraced them with high five's and hugs. He then proceeded to get his son down from the stands to enjoy the final whistle with him. Now, fair play to him for wanting to enjoy this special moment with his son but I felt that it only rubbed Laois's face in it.

With a quarter final tie with Derry to come the vast majority of the country will be hoping the Oak Leaf men can beat them. The Dubs have become the team everyone loves to hate, but they can play football and are serious All Ireland contenders. Can you imagine the smile on Pillar's face if they manage to lift Sam; it might even stay for the post match interview!

Good read but whats this got to do with Graham?

I reproduced the whole article for accuracy's sake only. Just seems to me that a week ago Colm was prepared to accept a bit of verbals/goading etc as part of the game and in fact it was usually retaliatory in nature, whereas off the ball stuff was the major problem in the GAA, now of course it's the Graham affair.  Also in his Sunday Life article he states that as a player he heard instances of sectarian abuse yet as a journalist he never felt this was worthy of a story until now??  To be fair I take your point...I suppose my original point is more about Colm and the nature of journos rather than a direct comment on the Graham affair itself.