Author Topic: Man Utd Thread:  (Read 4110901 times)

Ed Ricketts

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49005 on: October 25, 2021, 01:29:34 PM »
People keep banging the drum about all the top class players United have,  please tell me who they are, genuinely.

De Gea is a great shot stopper but poor with the ball at his feet. Still their best player yesterday.

Back four,  AWB is a pretend footballer. Crashes into tackles but positioning is dreadful and his ability on the ball is worse. Lindelof is a decent defender but that’s all. Maguire is a lummox. Turning ability of an oil tanker and doesn’t dominate in the air. Positioning once again is dreadful. Shaw living off last years form, out of shape and another who is very suspect with his defensive positioning.

The midfield 2 of MacFred are very limited. Don’t know how to play as out and out DMs, not great on the ball. McTominay went on a burst where he scores a few goals and he was the second coming but he has reverted to type. Fred is just Fred, his name is as inconsequential as his performances.

Greenwood, Fernándes and Rashford have a lot of ability. Greenwood seems a bit entitled and for a young lad doesn’t work hard enough. He should be busting his hole to back up his MF and FBs but plays lazy and waits for the break out ball. That doesn’t count at the top level. Rashford is good but is streaky, which is understandable given he is still a young lad. Fernandes has suffered most from Ronaldo joining as he works hard but has to do the work of 2 now as CR is suck a vanity luxury player he will not do the hard work. Also his numbers were padded significantly by the penalties and free kicks he scored which made him seem better than he actually is.

Then we have Ronaldo. He is the catalyst that could destroy this team. He has to play, the team has to play to suit him, and that’s what’s f**king them up more than anything. He will score goals but scoring them against the top 4-5 teams will be difficult. He never got a sniff yesterday until the disallowed goal as he didn’t work hard enough. By the time he scored the game was being played out at walking pace, so it suited him. Ole won’t have the balls to drop him for a run of games.

Outside of that Pogba is a fraud and yesterday showed him for what he is. Not just the sending off but his general play in the 15 minutes he was on. Caught out badly for the 5th goal. Cavani is a good player but at 33 is not the long term answer. Varane is a good CB but I don’t know if he likes it in the PL. Sancho and DVB are sitting on the bench being wasted. 2 young players with a lot of talent and they are being destroyed. Martial was the chosen one as well and has disappeared. To be honest there are about 4-5 that are long term players for a team that’s going to win the PL. They will need RB, CB, LB, at least 1 maybe 2 CMs and at least 1 striker. That won’t come cheap as LFC, City, CFC andante now Newcastle are all shopping at the top table. The United squad has cost £900m. It will need another £300-400m worth of signings but who?

This sort of stuff is a bit pointless. Everyone is shit when you're losing and everyone is world class when you're winning. It's the same in all sports.

Of course there are holes in that United squad, but it's not possible to make such definitive judgements when these players are handicapped by their circumstances.

Chelsea were bungling along to nowhere last Christmas with a load of overpriced flops, ninth in the league and losing to the likes of Arsenal, Everton and Wolves. So they went out and got a real manager and he won them the Champions League with the exact same group of players.

Surely Liverpool fans more than most understand the value of skilled leadership? I mean, what sort of goons might Henderson, Milner or Robertson look like now if Liverpool were still under the guidance of Uncle Woy? Would Mo Salah even be a thing?

Boycey

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49006 on: October 25, 2021, 01:54:41 PM »
I been attempting to write something similar to that Ed but you have said it much better... I've defended individual Utd players on here loads of times as my belief is that as a group of players they SHOULD be pretty decent and don't buy in to the 'hes shit and he's shit'  way of grading players nowadays. Sometimes a team are better than the sum of their parts like Liverpool but United are significantly worse than the sum of their parts and that currently has.to go down to the way they are managed/coached.

I'll probably be made look stupid by evening time but I don't see a will amongst the club hierarchy to make a managerial change either...
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 01:57:14 PM by Boycey »

brokencrossbar1

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49007 on: October 25, 2021, 02:07:47 PM »
I been attempting to write something similar to that Ed but you have said it much better... I've defended individual Utd players on here loads of times as my belief is that as a group of players they SHOULD be pretty decent and don't buy in to the 'hes shit and he's shit'  way of grading players nowadays. Sometimes a team are better than the sum of their parts like Liverpool but United are significantly worse than the sum of their parts and that currently has.to go down to the way they are managed/coached.

I'll probably be made look stupid by evening time but I don't see a will amongst the club hierarchy to make a managerial change either...

Boycey there is a decent group of players but AWB, Maguire, Shaw and McFred are not top level players. There is a serious problem with the mentality too and the coaching seems to be shocking as it is pure individualism rather than a team.

United should have set a deep back 4, McFred in front, soaked up and attacked in the break. They were caught between pressing and not pressing. No game plan whatsoever. That being said they still need 4-5 players at the top level.

No matter what Ronaldo is a problem and Ole doesn’t have the authority to deal with it.

J70

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49008 on: October 25, 2021, 02:40:41 PM »
They just look very poorly coached and organized. No defensive system of any kind, from front to back. That was junior soccer stuff from the likes of Maguire and Shaw yesterday.

Klopp took over a poor and drifting Liverpool squad and within weeks had them winning away at Chelsea and City and, later that season, knocking United and Dortmund out of the UEFA cup. The players weren't any better in terms of ability. They were just given a system and coached to learn to work within it. Still suffered some poor results that year due to those individual shortcomings, but the progression was clear over those first few months and then continued as he improved the quality of the squad.

United need the modern equivalent of George Graham coming in and literally tying Winterburn-Adams-Bould-Dixon together and endlessly drilling them in how a defensive line should function as a unit. I don't mean just the defense, but they need to decide what kind of system they want and get a manager in who can put it into practice so everyone knows what they should be doing with and without the ball. Any boys who don't want to do the hard yards in training, ship them the f**k out.

As a Liverpool fan though, I'm happy to see Ole continue at the wheel! :)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 02:42:24 PM by J70 »

Armamike

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49009 on: October 25, 2021, 02:51:41 PM »
I been attempting to write something similar to that Ed but you have said it much better... I've defended individual Utd players on here loads of times as my belief is that as a group of players they SHOULD be pretty decent and don't buy in to the 'hes shit and he's shit'  way of grading players nowadays. Sometimes a team are better than the sum of their parts like Liverpool but United are significantly worse than the sum of their parts and that currently has.to go down to the way they are managed/coached.

I'll probably be made look stupid by evening time but I don't see a will amongst the club hierarchy to make a managerial change either...


Boycey there is a decent group of players but AWB, Maguire, Shaw and McFred are not top level players. There is a serious problem with the mentality too and the coaching seems to be shocking as it is pure individualism rather than a team.

United should have set a deep back 4, McFred in front, soaked up and attacked in the break. They were caught between pressing and not pressing. No game plan whatsoever. That being said they still need 4-5 players at the top level.

No matter what Ronaldo is a problem and Ole doesn’t have the authority to deal with it.

I reckoned they would sit deep and counter for this game, using Rashford or Greenwood's pace. I was a bit worried we'd get mugged in this one.  It was bananas to play so open.  I get it that they're trying to play on the front foot more but in the modern game the forward line is the first line of defence.  Klopp signalled his intent to play this way from the first game in charge, away from home against Spurs in 2015.  But it takes a bit of time and hard work to get it right.  Three years down the line is a bit late in the day.
From doubters to believers again.

BennyCake

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49010 on: October 25, 2021, 02:54:15 PM »
So how much will City win by at Old Trafford in two weeks?

Armagh18

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49011 on: October 25, 2021, 02:55:37 PM »
Looks like Ole out Conte in

Boycey

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49012 on: October 25, 2021, 06:18:33 PM »
I been attempting to write something similar to that Ed but you have said it much better... I've defended individual Utd players on here loads of times as my belief is that as a group of players they SHOULD be pretty decent and don't buy in to the 'hes shit and he's shit'  way of grading players nowadays. Sometimes a team are better than the sum of their parts like Liverpool but United are significantly worse than the sum of their parts and that currently has.to go down to the way they are managed/coached.

I'll probably be made look stupid by evening time but I don't see a will amongst the club hierarchy to make a managerial change either...

Boycey there is a decent group of players but AWB, Maguire, Shaw and McFred are not top level players. There is a serious problem with the mentality too and the coaching seems to be shocking as it is pure individualism rather than a team.

United should have set a deep back 4, McFred in front, soaked up and attacked in the break. They were caught between pressing and not pressing. No game plan whatsoever. That being said they still need 4-5 players at the top level.

No matter what Ronaldo is a problem and Ole doesn’t have the authority to deal with it.

We could argue the toss about the relative ability of players for hours and not agree My point and I've stated it multiple times on here is that the players you have mentioned there for example are/should be competent enough to play a part in a well defined and coached system. Maguire has been a mainstay in an England team that reached a World Cup semi and Euro Final recently. Shaw was also in the Euro squad.. Fred played nearly all the minutes for Brazil in a Copa tournament during the summer....

I'm not saying they the best in the world I'm saying they can contribute under a better coaching regime which was the main thrust of Eds post. His points about Liverpool and Chelsea's improvements ring very true to me....

brokencrossbar1

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49013 on: October 25, 2021, 06:50:30 PM »
Could those players mentioned be better under a better coach?  Absolutely.

Are these players good enough for United to push on to PL/CL winning levels under a better coach?  Absolutely not

Boycey

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49014 on: October 25, 2021, 07:11:41 PM »
Could those players mentioned be better under a better coach?  Absolutely.

Are these players good enough for United to push on to PL/CL winning levels under a better coach?  Absolutely not

Opinion not fact, worse teams/squads have won leagues.

seafoid

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49015 on: October 25, 2021, 07:34:17 PM »
They just look very poorly coached and organized. No defensive system of any kind, from front to back. That was junior soccer stuff from the likes of Maguire and Shaw yesterday.

Klopp took over a poor and drifting Liverpool squad and within weeks had them winning away at Chelsea and City and, later that season, knocking United and Dortmund out of the UEFA cup. The players weren't any better in terms of ability. They were just given a system and coached to learn to work within it. Still suffered some poor results that year due to those individual shortcomings, but the progression was clear over those first few months and then continued as he improved the quality of the squad.

United need the modern equivalent of George Graham coming in and literally tying Winterburn-Adams-Bould-Dixon together and endlessly drilling them in how a defensive line should function as a unit. I don't mean just the defense, but they need to decide what kind of system they want and get a manager in who can put it into practice so everyone knows what they should be doing with and without the ball. Any boys who don't want to do the hard yards in training, ship them the f**k out.

As a Liverpool fan though, I'm happy to see Ole continue at the wheel! :)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/25/liverpool-left-manchester-united-trailing-field/
Back in 2010, when the Fenway Park Group rescued the club from the huckster ownership of George Gillett and Tom Hicks, Liverpool’s overall earnings were just 55 per cent of United’s: £184 million to £331m. Last season they were within touching distance. While United earned £643m, Liverpool turned over £619m
Clearly the most astute move by the new regime was the one to hire Klopp. He brought the success on the pitch the rocket-fuelled the bottom line. It is indicative of the difference between the operational expertise of the two organisations that, before Liverpool were in the market for him, United failed to persuade the then Borussia Dortmund coach to bring his brilliance to Manchester. It probably didn’t help that when he came to Old Trafford for talks, the executive vice-chairman Ed Woodward greeted Klopp, one of football’s enduring romantics, with the words “welcome to Disneyland”.
For sure, there have been some woeful public relations missteps along the way by FSG. Trying to impose a £77 ticket price, looking to trademark the city’s Liverbird symbol, hoping to piggyback on the government’s furlough scheme, not to mention the European Super League proposal: such rapidly-ditched embarrassments were perhaps the inevitable outcome of the collision between ultra-capitalist owners and a hardcore support than prides itself on socialist traditions. But, such errors notwithstanding, nobody could argue with what the owners have delivered both on the pitch and off it. 
If you want a measure of the scale of the booster Henry and his team have injected into the Anfield revenue streams, it is there in the assumed value of the club. When they bought it in 2010, admittedly from a beleaguered regime facing foreclosure from the banks seeking return on reckless debt, they paid £300m. In April this year the club was valued by Forbes at £2.96 billion. A near tenfold increase in 11 years: that is what you call a return on investment. And if Liverpool win the league this season, bettering United yet again, it will only add a few more noughts.
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seafoid

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49016 on: October 25, 2021, 08:03:23 PM »
Looks like Ole out Conte in
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/25/players-lose-faith-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-manchester-united/
Antonio Conte, the former Chelsea, Juventus and Inter Milan coach, is keen on the job, has been for a while and is prepared to bide his time but United are understood to be very wary of his style of management.
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Gmac

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49017 on: October 25, 2021, 08:39:49 PM »
I think keane  said it best these players will throw ole under the bus the same as they did to Jose.

seafoid

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49018 on: October 25, 2021, 08:58:00 PM »
They just look very poorly coached and organized. No defensive system of any kind, from front to back. That was junior soccer stuff from the likes of Maguire and Shaw yesterday.

Klopp took over a poor and drifting Liverpool squad and within weeks had them winning away at Chelsea and City and, later that season, knocking United and Dortmund out of the UEFA cup. The players weren't any better in terms of ability. They were just given a system and coached to learn to work within it. Still suffered some poor results that year due to those individual shortcomings, but the progression was clear over those first few months and then continued as he improved the quality of the squad.

United need the modern equivalent of George Graham coming in and literally tying Winterburn-Adams-Bould-Dixon together and endlessly drilling them in how a defensive line should function as a unit. I don't mean just the defense, but they need to decide what kind of system they want and get a manager in who can put it into practice so everyone knows what they should be doing with and without the ball. Any boys who don't want to do the hard yards in training, ship them the f**k out.

As a Liverpool fan though, I'm happy to see Ole continue at the wheel! :)
Klopp was a successful coach before he went to Liverpool. Solskjaer was not.
Liverpool v Man Utd is the number one rivalry in English soccer . Yesterday was total facepalm for Utd
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Armagh18

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #49019 on: October 25, 2021, 09:26:33 PM »
Could those players mentioned be better under a better coach?  Absolutely.

Are these players good enough for United to push on to PL/CL winning levels under a better coach?  Absolutely not
Definitely don’t agree there. I’ve seen enough from probably every player on that team to rate them as good enough to play on title winning teams when they’re playing to their full potential.