Man Utd Thread:

[Bingo]

I don't think Chelsea have been close to been one of the top teams in Europe, in England yes, but in Europe they've been consistently average.

Chelsea have been as far as the CL semi-final in 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008 and 2009. If that's average, what's above average?

Actually winning those semi's on a consistent basis, not just the once. Top teams win finals, not make the semi's.

[ross4life]

Lads, now that the dust has settled after weekend - a serious question?

Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL? 2 wins in all those years and with all the great squads he had. It could also be argued that both wins had an element of good fortune about them (which if course is always needed to win these ones).

But when you look back and see some of them teams that have won (including the great LFC team of 2005  ), its clear that United should have won more.

The question is why they haven't?

I can't help feeling if United played the Milan sides in the final instead of one of the greatest club sides of all time they would be on 5 CL titles now. when fergie retires i think he'll finish on 4 Cl titles but the question will remain "Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL?" don't think so when you consider before he came... United where only on 1 European cup win.

As for Chelsea IMO they where the best club team in Europe in 2005 Liverpool just happened to win the cup.

[Bingo]

I can't help feeling if United played the Milan sides in the final instead of one of the greatest club sides of all time they would be on 5 CL titles now. when fergie retires i think he'll finish on 4 Cl titles but the question will remain "Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL?" don't think so when you consider before he came... United where only on 1 European cup win.

As for Chelsea IMO they where the best club team in Europe in 2005 Liverpool just happened to win the cup.

They were better in 2008, Terry just happened to blow his big chance.

[ross4life]

I can't help feeling if United played the Milan sides in the final instead of one of the greatest club sides of all time they would be on 5 CL titles now. when fergie retires i think he'll finish on 4 Cl titles but the question will remain "Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL?" don't think so when you consider before he came... United where only on 1 European cup win.

As for Chelsea IMO they where the best club team in Europe in 2005 Liverpool just happened to win the cup.

They were better in 2008, Terry just happened to blow his big chance.

Yes if Terry stayed on his feet Chelsea would have won the cup but i still think United were the best Club side in Europe in 2008.

[Bingo]

I can't help feeling if United played the Milan sides in the final instead of one of the greatest club sides of all time they would be on 5 CL titles now. when fergie retires i think he'll finish on 4 Cl titles but the question will remain "Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL?" don't think so when you consider before he came... United where only on 1 European cup win.

As for Chelsea IMO they where the best club team in Europe in 2005 Liverpool just happened to win the cup.

They were better in 2008, Terry just happened to blow his big chance.

Yes if Terry stayed on his feet Chelsea would have won the cup but i still think United were the best Club side in Europe in 2008.

In fairness, its about lifting cups and history isn't written by opinion or who is the best side on paper.

[Blowitupref]

I can't help feeling if United played the Milan sides in the final instead of one of the greatest club sides of all time they would be on 5 CL titles now. when fergie retires i think he'll finish on 4 Cl titles but the question will remain "Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL?" don't think so when you consider before he came... United where only on 1 European cup win.

As for Chelsea IMO they where the best club team in Europe in 2005 Liverpool just happened to win the cup.

They were better in 2008, Terry just happened to blow his big chance.

Yes if Terry stayed on his feet Chelsea would have won the cup but i still think United were the best Club side in Europe in 2008.

In fairness, its about lifting cups and history isn't written by opinion or who is the best side on paper.

As Shankly once said "First is first, second is nowhere" but it's not entirely true as people still talk about the Dutch sides as one of the greatest even though they didn't lift the world cup.

[Bingo]

As Shankly once said "First is first, second is nowhere" but it's not entirely true as people still talk about the Dutch sides as one of the greatest even though they didn't lift the world cup.

True but they are talked about for re-inventing the game, the phrase "total football" was coined on the back of that team. I don't think any team in recent years who haven't won anything will be talked about on same basis - remember the Chelsea team of the noughties.....eh, not particularly. 

[deiseach]

I don't think Chelsea have been close to been one of the top teams in Europe, in England yes, but in Europe they've been consistently average.

Chelsea have been as far as the CL semi-final in 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008 and 2009. If that's average, what's above average?

Actually winning those semi's on a consistent basis, not just the once. Top teams win finals, not make the semi's.

As Norf Tyrone says, does that mean Porto, Liverpool and Inter were better teams than Chelsea over that period?

[Bingo]

I don't think Chelsea have been close to been one of the top teams in Europe, in England yes, but in Europe they've been consistently average.

Chelsea have been as far as the CL semi-final in 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008 and 2009. If that's average, what's above average?

Actually winning those semi's on a consistent basis, not just the once. Top teams win finals, not make the semi's.

As Norf Tyrone says, does that mean Porto, Liverpool and Inter were better teams than Chelsea over that period?

In some seasons they were and some they weren't. Wasn't it the case that in something like 6 CL matches V LFC, that chelsea scored 1 goal? By the way, I don't think any of those teams were top European teams over the same period but they all achieved alot more than Chelsea. In fact with 3 European trophies, Porto's record puts Chelsea's to shame.

[Geoff Tipps]

Lads, now that the dust has settled after weekend - a serious question?

Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL? 2 wins in all those years and with all the great squads he had. It could also be argued that both wins had an element of good fortune about them (which if course is always needed to win these ones).

But when you look back and see some of them teams that have won (including the great LFC team of 2005  ), its clear that United should have won more.

The question is why they haven't?

I can't help feeling if United played the Milan sides in the final instead of one of the greatest club sides of all time they would be on 5 CL titles now. when fergie retires i think he'll finish on 4 Cl titles but the question will remain "Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL?" don't think so when you consider before he came... United where only on 1 European cup win.

As for Chelsea IMO they where the best club team in Europe in 2005 Liverpool just happened to win the cup.

I can't help feeling that if ye had knocked Milan out in the semi final in '07, Liverpool would have 6 EC/CL titles now. Ye didn't though. They outclassed ye and it is what it is.

[Blowitupref]

Lads, now that the dust has settled after weekend - a serious question?

Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL? 2 wins in all those years and with all the great squads he had. It could also be argued that both wins had an element of good fortune about them (which if course is always needed to win these ones).

But when you look back and see some of them teams that have won (including the great LFC team of 2005  ), its clear that United should have won more.

The question is why they haven't?

I can't help feeling if United played the Milan sides in the final instead of one of the greatest club sides of all time they would be on 5 CL titles now. when fergie retires i think he'll finish on 4 Cl titles but the question will remain "Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL?" don't think so when you consider before he came... United where only on 1 European cup win.

As for Chelsea IMO they where the best club team in Europe in 2005 Liverpool just happened to win the cup.

I can't help feeling that if ye had knocked Milan out in the semi final in '07, Liverpool would have 6 EC/CL titles now. Ye didn't though. They outclassed ye and it is what it is.

You think Liverpool would have beaten United in a CL final? hmm i'm not so sure.

[laoislad]

Lads, now that the dust has settled after weekend - a serious question?

Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL? 2 wins in all those years and with all the great squads he had. It could also be argued that both wins had an element of good fortune about them (which if course is always needed to win these ones).

But when you look back and see some of them teams that have won (including the great LFC team of 2005  ), its clear that United should have won more.

The question is why they haven't?

I can't help feeling if United played the Milan sides in the final instead of one of the greatest club sides of all time they would be on 5 CL titles now. when fergie retires i think he'll finish on 4 Cl titles but the question will remain "Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL?" don't think so when you consider before he came... United where only on 1 European cup win.

As for Chelsea IMO they where the best club team in Europe in 2005 Liverpool just happened to win the cup.

I can't help feeling that if ye had knocked Milan out in the semi final in '07, Liverpool would have 6 EC/CL titles now. Ye didn't though. They outclassed ye and it is what it is.

Nevermind 6..If Heysel had never happened Liverpool would have 7 or 8 European Cups by now.

[Farrandeelin]

Lads, now that the dust has settled after weekend - a serious question?

Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL? 2 wins in all those years and with all the great squads he had. It could also be argued that both wins had an element of good fortune about them (which if course is always needed to win these ones).

But when you look back and see some of them teams that have won (including the great LFC team of 2005  ), its clear that United should have won more.

The question is why they haven't?

I can't help feeling if United played the Milan sides in the final instead of one of the greatest club sides of all time they would be on 5 CL titles now. when fergie retires i think he'll finish on 4 Cl titles but the question will remain "Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL?" don't think so when you consider before he came... United where only on 1 European cup win.

As for Chelsea IMO they where the best club team in Europe in 2005 Liverpool just happened to win the cup.

I can't help feeling that if ye had knocked Milan out in the semi final in '07, Liverpool would have 6 EC/CL titles now. Ye didn't though. They outclassed ye and it is what it is.

Nevermind 6..If Heysel had never happened Liverpool would have 7 or 8 European Cups by now.

If the Munich air crash hadn't happened, Utd may have more than only 3...

[Blowitupref]

Lads, now that the dust has settled after weekend - a serious question?

Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL? 2 wins in all those years and with all the great squads he had. It could also be argued that both wins had an element of good fortune about them (which if course is always needed to win these ones).

But when you look back and see some of them teams that have won (including the great LFC team of 2005  ), its clear that United should have won more.

The question is why they haven't?

I can't help feeling if United played the Milan sides in the final instead of one of the greatest club sides of all time they would be on 5 CL titles now. when fergie retires i think he'll finish on 4 Cl titles but the question will remain "Has Fergie under-achieved in the CL?" don't think so when you consider before he came... United where only on 1 European cup win.

As for Chelsea IMO they where the best club team in Europe in 2005 Liverpool just happened to win the cup.

I can't help feeling that if ye had knocked Milan out in the semi final in '07, Liverpool would have 6 EC/CL titles now. Ye didn't though. They outclassed ye and it is what it is.

Nevermind 6..If Heysel had never happened Liverpool would have 7 or 8 European Cups by now.

If the Munich air crash hadn't happened, Utd may have more than only 3...

Good point from both.

[Norf Tyrone]

I don't think Chelsea have been close to been one of the top teams in Europe, in England yes, but in Europe they've been consistently average.

Chelsea have been as far as the CL semi-final in 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008 and 2009. If that's average, what's above average?

Actually winning those semi's on a consistent basis, not just the once. Top teams win finals, not make the semi's.

As Norf Tyrone says, does that mean Porto, Liverpool and Inter were better teams than Chelsea over that period?

In some seasons they were and some they weren't. Wasn't it the case that in something like 6 CL matches V LFC, that chelsea scored 1 goal? By the way, I don't think any of those teams were top European teams over the same period but they all achieved alot more than Chelsea. In fact with 3 European trophies, Porto's record puts Chelsea's to shame.

Chelsea have had zero luck in the Champions League over the years. There was one or two years they would've been without doubt deserving winners, but that means nothing.

2004- Monaco score with a handball.
2005- The ghost goal (I know, I know)
2006- Drogba's dismissal in Camp Nou and Frisk gate
2007- Losing on penalities
2008- Where Ferdinand should've been sent off and Chelsae hitting the woodword 2 or 3 times.
2009- Overbo and the four penalty claims (I can guarantee that if the roles were reversed that night, or if it had've been one of the G12 affected there would've been more of a hue and cry about that night.
2010- The penalty that should've been for Kalou in the Nou Camp and the subsequent red card (Brazilian IM defender whose name escapes me).
2011- The penalty that should've been for Ramires at the Bridge, and an offside goal at Old Trafford.

Now that's not to say that in every year we deserved to win it, nor did we deserve to win all the games highlighted, but it does illustrate the absence of luck and the need for it to with any cup, never mind the CL.


Chelsea's head to head record v Liverpool is better for the record.

Chelsea 0 Liverpool 0
0-1
0-0
0-0
1-0
0-1
1-1
3-2
3-1
4-4

Chelsea P10 W3 D5 L2 F12 A10

Also for the record, as you've got that wrong too, Porto have 5 European trophies, not 3.