Russia invades Ukraine Feb 2022

[gallsman]

Paging Franko, paging Franko.

Still nothing to see here, you reckon?

[trueblue1234]

No, I believe both sides were at it. I believe Yanukovych was turned by Russia and that he wasn't serving Ukraine's interests anymore. I also believe the US saw that and helped to oust him.
It's possible to believe both were at it. But you have consistently downplayed Russian involvement with your use of language, "poking the bear", West's ehthno supremacy, NATO expansion. Russian buzzwords just as much as the US propaganda.
You still haven't answered what do Ukraine do when Russia invaded?

[Hand of God]

No, I believe both sides were at it. I believe Yanukovych was turned by Russia and that he wasn't serving Ukraine's interests anyone. I also believe the US saw that and helped to oust him.
It's possible to believe both were at it. But you have consistently downplayed Russian involvement with your use of language, "poking the bear", West's ehthno supremacy, NATO expansion. Russian buzzwords just as much as the US propaganda.
You still haven't answered what do Ukraine do when Russia invaded?

I fully agree with all that.

I don't have any quibble with that position whatsoever. I don't get why we are disagreeing here. I have said multiple times Ukraine has every right to defend itself but this is quite clearly a proxy war between two imperial superpowers that Ukraine has been caught in the middle of.

The issue I have been consistently pointed out is that the role of the West in this conflict is clear. It's not just a case of the Russians deciding they were going to wake up one day and invade Ukraine. The reasons for it are they do feel threatened by NATO expansion and they do feel that the West was instrumental in removing an ally they had in power in Ukraine.

The West like to preach about freedom and democracy, they like to pretend they interfere in countries to remove dictators and give the country some liberal values.

They invaded Iraq under a false pretence to remove a tyrannical dictator they were instrumental in empowering in the first place, how is Iraq doing now?

They got rid of Assad in Syria and replaced him with the ISIS second in command. How is that going for Syrians?

They got rid of a Russia aligned government in Ukraine and replaced it with a western-aligned government. How has that worked out?

They got rid of Gaddafi in Libya, its been ruled by militias since?

They got rid of the Taliban in Afghanistan - ironic they armed and financed Bin Laden in order to fight Russia - and returned to the Taliban. How is that going?

The foreign policy of the US is imperialism, its control, they invade, finance, meddle and drop bombs under false pretences. Ukraine is just another front for them.

Saying that the West has been a guilty party in the Ukraine is a fact. It doesn't absolve Russia of their invasion, it doesn't mean Putin is not a war criminal, it doesn't mean Ukraine doesn't have the right to defend itself. They are all valid positions but we have to face up to West's involvement in this conflict.

The West are the most evil regime in this world - mass murder, starvation, destruction of infrastructure, lowering of living standards, poverty, population displacement - that's the end result of wherever they meddle in. Has there ever been a country with a happy ending where they have stuck their nose in?

[DaleCooper]

"West's ehthno supremacy"

Stopped reading there. One of the dumbest things I've ever read, nicely buttressed by the spelling mistake

[trueblue1234]

The difference is, I don't believe Russia were threatened by NATO. I believe they were concerned that NATO's involvement would reduce their ability to bully and invade other independent countries. There is a significant difference.
 

[Milltown Row2]

We can accept that Russia invaded a country and Israel are committing genocide, we can also accept that there are other wars. No doubt started by whoever but people are losing their lives daily as humans are pretty disgusting at times

Sudan: A civil war is ongoing between the Sudanese Armed Forces and the Rapid Support Forces (RSF), with conflict-related violence spilling into neighboring countries like Chad and South Sudan.
Somalia: The country is experiencing a civil war and is also affected by conflict spills from Ethiopia.
Democratic Republic of the Congo: The country is the site of a complex conflict with multiple armed groups.
Mali: The country is experiencing high levels of insecurity due to attacks by armed groups, a situation complicated by a French withdrawal and internal political instability.
Burkina Faso: The country is a hotspot of insecurity, with escalating violence from armed groups, according to recent reports from the Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project (ACLED).
Nigeria: The country faces a worsening security situation, with conflicts between farmers and herders in central areas, banditry in the northwest, and uprisings by separatists in the southeast.
Ethiopia: The country is dealing with the aftermath of a civil war that began in November 2020, with conflict-related violence spilling into neighboring countries.
Cameroon: The country is dealing with a long-term crisis in its northern and southwestern regions, with violence that has gone on for years.
Other countries: Other countries with ongoing conflicts include the Central African Republic, Mozambique, and Burundi. 

[Hand of God]

The difference is, I don't believe Russia were threatened by NATO. I believe they were concerned that NATO's involvement would reduce their ability to bully and invade other independent countries. There is a significant difference.
 

You don't think your enemies expanding onto your borders is something that makes you feel threatened?

You might have a point if the West had an unblemished record of peacekeeping, democracy and freedom. Conversely the West are the world's biggest terrorists and Israel has been a real eye opener in the level of unhinged propaganda Western governments, states and media outlets engage it. They have whitewashed a genocide before our very eyes.

Ukraine is the victim in all of this. The West certainly bare a level of culpability and Russia certainly bare the brunt of the blame.

[Hand of God]

We can accept that Russia invaded a country and Israel are committing genocide, we can also accept that there are other wars. No doubt started by whoever but people are losing their lives daily as humans are pretty disgusting at times

Sudan: A civil war is ongoing between the Sudanese Armed Forces and the Rapid Support Forces (RSF), with conflict-related violence spilling into neighboring countries like Chad and South Sudan.
Somalia: The country is experiencing a civil war and is also affected by conflict spills from Ethiopia.
Democratic Republic of the Congo: The country is the site of a complex conflict with multiple armed groups.
Mali: The country is experiencing high levels of insecurity due to attacks by armed groups, a situation complicated by a French withdrawal and internal political instability.
Burkina Faso: The country is a hotspot of insecurity, with escalating violence from armed groups, according to recent reports from the Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project (ACLED).
Nigeria: The country faces a worsening security situation, with conflicts between farmers and herders in central areas, banditry in the northwest, and uprisings by separatists in the southeast.
Ethiopia: The country is dealing with the aftermath of a civil war that began in November 2020, with conflict-related violence spilling into neighboring countries.
Cameroon: The country is dealing with a long-term crisis in its northern and southwestern regions, with violence that has gone on for years.
Other countries: Other countries with ongoing conflicts include the Central African Republic, Mozambique, and Burundi. 

The majority of those countries there are in Africa if not all? Is there any significant reason in the history of these countries that you might see might have led to a culture of poverty, corruption and violence?

A lot of European countries might have colonised these countries perhaps, they might have violently slaughtered and stripped the natives of their land and dignity and then pulled out of the country and put some despot crony in power. They divided the natives and then left a vacuum for power.

[Milltown Row2]

We can accept that Russia invaded a country and Israel are committing genocide, we can also accept that there are other wars. No doubt started by whoever but people are losing their lives daily as humans are pretty disgusting at times

Sudan: A civil war is ongoing between the Sudanese Armed Forces and the Rapid Support Forces (RSF), with conflict-related violence spilling into neighboring countries like Chad and South Sudan.
Somalia: The country is experiencing a civil war and is also affected by conflict spills from Ethiopia.
Democratic Republic of the Congo: The country is the site of a complex conflict with multiple armed groups.
Mali: The country is experiencing high levels of insecurity due to attacks by armed groups, a situation complicated by a French withdrawal and internal political instability.
Burkina Faso: The country is a hotspot of insecurity, with escalating violence from armed groups, according to recent reports from the Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project (ACLED).
Nigeria: The country faces a worsening security situation, with conflicts between farmers and herders in central areas, banditry in the northwest, and uprisings by separatists in the southeast.
Ethiopia: The country is dealing with the aftermath of a civil war that began in November 2020, with conflict-related violence spilling into neighboring countries.
Cameroon: The country is dealing with a long-term crisis in its northern and southwestern regions, with violence that has gone on for years.
Other countries: Other countries with ongoing conflicts include the Central African Republic, Mozambique, and Burundi. 

The majority of those countries there are in Africa if not all? Is there any significant reason in the history of these countries that you might see might have led to a culture of poverty, corruption and violence?

A lot of European countries might have colonised these countries perhaps, they might have violently slaughtered and stripped the natives of their land and dignity and then pulled out of the country and put some despot crony in power. They divided the natives and then left a vacuum for power.

Again, you are looking to blame.. Why? Tell me how that will solve the problem

[Genocide Organ]

We can accept that Russia invaded a country and Israel are committing genocide, we can also accept that there are other wars. No doubt started by whoever but people are losing their lives daily as humans are pretty disgusting at times

Sudan: A civil war is ongoing between the Sudanese Armed Forces and the Rapid Support Forces (RSF), with conflict-related violence spilling into neighboring countries like Chad and South Sudan.
Somalia: The country is experiencing a civil war and is also affected by conflict spills from Ethiopia.
Democratic Republic of the Congo: The country is the site of a complex conflict with multiple armed groups.
Mali: The country is experiencing high levels of insecurity due to attacks by armed groups, a situation complicated by a French withdrawal and internal political instability.
Burkina Faso: The country is a hotspot of insecurity, with escalating violence from armed groups, according to recent reports from the Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project (ACLED).
Nigeria: The country faces a worsening security situation, with conflicts between farmers and herders in central areas, banditry in the northwest, and uprisings by separatists in the southeast.
Ethiopia: The country is dealing with the aftermath of a civil war that began in November 2020, with conflict-related violence spilling into neighboring countries.
Cameroon: The country is dealing with a long-term crisis in its northern and southwestern regions, with violence that has gone on for years.
Other countries: Other countries with ongoing conflicts include the Central African Republic, Mozambique, and Burundi. 

The majority of those countries there are in Africa if not all? Is there any significant reason in the history of these countries that you might see might have led to a culture of poverty, corruption and violence?

A lot of European countries might have colonised these countries perhaps, they might have violently slaughtered and stripped the natives of their land and dignity and then pulled out of the country and put some despot crony in power. They divided the natives and then left a vacuum for power.

Maybe culture and genetics play some part? After all, European countries colonised other parts of the world too, and there's not endless wars.

[Hand of God]

Again, you are looking to blame.. Why? Tell me how that will solve the problem

And you're looking to whitewash history and avoid accountability.

It's very comples how these things can be solved but we all know who is responsible. Don't we?

The West has an abhorrent history when it comes to ethnic cleansing, colonising, oppression and slavery. Why do you not want to discuss the reasons for this. It's not that along ago when Europe was pillaging Africa so of course it is absolutely central in the state of these countries to date. Just like the British had everything to answer for Troubles. It's white Europeans who are the ones running an apartheid state in Israel - but hey, they're our allies right?

[Hand of God]

We can accept that Russia invaded a country and Israel are committing genocide, we can also accept that there are other wars. No doubt started by whoever but people are losing their lives daily as humans are pretty disgusting at times

Sudan: A civil war is ongoing between the Sudanese Armed Forces and the Rapid Support Forces (RSF), with conflict-related violence spilling into neighboring countries like Chad and South Sudan.
Somalia: The country is experiencing a civil war and is also affected by conflict spills from Ethiopia.
Democratic Republic of the Congo: The country is the site of a complex conflict with multiple armed groups.
Mali: The country is experiencing high levels of insecurity due to attacks by armed groups, a situation complicated by a French withdrawal and internal political instability.
Burkina Faso: The country is a hotspot of insecurity, with escalating violence from armed groups, according to recent reports from the Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project (ACLED).
Nigeria: The country faces a worsening security situation, with conflicts between farmers and herders in central areas, banditry in the northwest, and uprisings by separatists in the southeast.
Ethiopia: The country is dealing with the aftermath of a civil war that began in November 2020, with conflict-related violence spilling into neighboring countries.
Cameroon: The country is dealing with a long-term crisis in its northern and southwestern regions, with violence that has gone on for years.
Other countries: Other countries with ongoing conflicts include the Central African Republic, Mozambique, and Burundi. 

The majority of those countries there are in Africa if not all? Is there any significant reason in the history of these countries that you might see might have led to a culture of poverty, corruption and violence?

A lot of European countries might have colonised these countries perhaps, they might have violently slaughtered and stripped the natives of their land and dignity and then pulled out of the country and put some despot crony in power. They divided the natives and then left a vacuum for power.

Maybe culture and genetics play some part? After all, European countries colonised other parts of the world too, and there's not endless wars.

Such as, the place where they placed settlers who ethnically cleansed the native populations?

You're showing White Europeans for the violent savages they are.

[trueblue1234]

The difference is, I don't believe Russia were threatened by NATO. I believe they were concerned that NATO's involvement would reduce their ability to bully and invade other independent countries. There is a significant difference.
 

You don't think your enemies expanding onto your borders is something that makes you feel threatened?

You might have a point if the West had an unblemished record of peacekeeping, democracy and freedom. Conversely the West are the world's biggest terrorists and Israel has been a real eye opener in the level of unhinged propaganda Western governments, states and media outlets engage it. They have whitewashed a genocide before our very eyes.

Ukraine is the victim in all of this. The West certainly bare a level of culpability and Russia certainly bare the brunt of the blame.

Then I'm sure you'll understand why Ukraine wanted to engage with NATO. Its  enemy was already at its borders and with a history of aggression. Ukraine were looking for protection.
There's no way of spinning this without Russia taking the majority of the blame as you said. I'm happy to agree with you on US warmongering but for me, NATO is a very understandable desire for Ukraine. Indeed any protection from the bigger threat of Russia is a no brainer.

[Hand of God]

The difference is, I don't believe Russia were threatened by NATO. I believe they were concerned that NATO's involvement would reduce their ability to bully and invade other independent countries. There is a significant difference.
 

You don't think your enemies expanding onto your borders is something that makes you feel threatened?

You might have a point if the West had an unblemished record of peacekeeping, democracy and freedom. Conversely the West are the world's biggest terrorists and Israel has been a real eye opener in the level of unhinged propaganda Western governments, states and media outlets engage it. They have whitewashed a genocide before our very eyes.

Ukraine is the victim in all of this. The West certainly bare a level of culpability and Russia certainly bare the brunt of the blame.

Then I'm sure you'll understand why Ukraine wanted to engage with NATO. Its  enemy was already at its borders and with a history of aggression. Ukraine were looking for protection.
There's no way of spinning this without Russia taking the majority of the blame as you said. I'm happy to agree with you on US warmongering but for me, NATO is a very understandable desire for Ukraine. Indeed any protection from the bigger threat of Russia is a no brainer.

It might be an understandable desire for Ukraine. I won't deny that but it just focus on that element you ignore how it got to there, how a democratically elected government was toppled by an uprising that had Western involvement written all over it.

I think any sensible balanced person can see that and that the US and Western powers knowingly directed Ukraine into a situation that they knew would very likely lead to war.

I don't seek to absolve Russia from its role here but there has to be an admission, the West knowingly put Ukraine and it's citizens in the firing line.

Is Ukraine in a better place than it was 12 years ago?

[Genocide Organ]

We can accept that Russia invaded a country and Israel are committing genocide, we can also accept that there are other wars. No doubt started by whoever but people are losing their lives daily as humans are pretty disgusting at times

Sudan: A civil war is ongoing between the Sudanese Armed Forces and the Rapid Support Forces (RSF), with conflict-related violence spilling into neighboring countries like Chad and South Sudan.
Somalia: The country is experiencing a civil war and is also affected by conflict spills from Ethiopia.
Democratic Republic of the Congo: The country is the site of a complex conflict with multiple armed groups.
Mali: The country is experiencing high levels of insecurity due to attacks by armed groups, a situation complicated by a French withdrawal and internal political instability.
Burkina Faso: The country is a hotspot of insecurity, with escalating violence from armed groups, according to recent reports from the Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project (ACLED).
Nigeria: The country faces a worsening security situation, with conflicts between farmers and herders in central areas, banditry in the northwest, and uprisings by separatists in the southeast.
Ethiopia: The country is dealing with the aftermath of a civil war that began in November 2020, with conflict-related violence spilling into neighboring countries.
Cameroon: The country is dealing with a long-term crisis in its northern and southwestern regions, with violence that has gone on for years.
Other countries: Other countries with ongoing conflicts include the Central African Republic, Mozambique, and Burundi. 

The majority of those countries there are in Africa if not all? Is there any significant reason in the history of these countries that you might see might have led to a culture of poverty, corruption and violence?

A lot of European countries might have colonised these countries perhaps, they might have violently slaughtered and stripped the natives of their land and dignity and then pulled out of the country and put some despot crony in power. They divided the natives and then left a vacuum for power.

Maybe culture and genetics play some part? After all, European countries colonised other parts of the world too, and there's not endless wars.

Such as, the place where they placed settlers who ethnically cleansed the native populations?

You're showing White Europeans for the violent savages they are.

Ha ha! They're not white Europeans!