Burns wants rid of Tricolour & Anthem to attract Protestants to GAA

[easytiger95]

Just reading Mick Foley's "The Bloodied Field" at the moment, which is a brilliant account of events leading up to Bloody Sunday 1920. Well worth reading especially for the examination of the intertwining of the GAA and the Volunteers/IRB (for obvious and necessary reasons) but also for the contortions that early patrons of the GAA had to use to persuade the authorities and the Catholic Church that they were non-political.

Fast forward 50 years and the same dilemmas faced the GAA in the Six Counties, with the same (at times deadly) consequences.

Judging by the debate above, I think it is worth a read for context.

My own best memory of the anthem is the 2013 semi final against Kerry - beautiful day, amazing atmosphere and there had been a minutes silence for Heffo and Paidi, so there was a real poignant quality to the air. Then the anthem starts, and everyone belts it out, practically to the end. Hair well and truly standing up by the end of it, and not just with the durable wax.

However, I wouldn't mind seeing it gone, provided its absence would make some kind of material difference to the Protestant participation in our games. Perhaps the best thing to do before dropping flags and anthems (though again, given the 32 county nature of the GAA, I think they should be dropped) would be to have a debate about what "promoting the National identity" actually means, and also, more importantly, what the "National identity" is actually defined as.

Given the steps taken in recent years, starting with the lifting of the ban on foreign games, all the way through to the opening of Croke Park and the participation of British soldiers and PSNI in the GAA, i think a special Congress is in order to define this ideal, or redefine it in the light of modern society. It may be, after the debate, that flying a flag and playing an anthem may be contrary to promoting a national identity.

[The Hill is Blue]

Just reading Mick Foley's "The Bloodied Field" at the moment, which is a brilliant account of events leading up to Bloody Sunday 1920. Well worth reading especially for the examination of the intertwining of the GAA and the Volunteers/IRB (for obvious and necessary reasons) but also for the contortions that early patrons of the GAA had to use to persuade the authorities and the Catholic Church that they were non-political.

Fast forward 50 years and the same dilemmas faced the GAA in the Six Counties, with the same (at times deadly) consequences.

Judging by the debate above, I think it is worth a read for context.

My own best memory of the anthem is the 2013 semi final against Kerry - beautiful day, amazing atmosphere and there had been a minutes silence for Heffo and Paidi, so there was a real poignant quality to the air. Then the anthem starts, and everyone belts it out, practically to the end. Hair well and truly standing up by the end of it, and not just with the durable wax.

However, I wouldn't mind seeing it gone, provided its absence would make some kind of material difference to the Protestant participation in our games. Perhaps the best thing to do before dropping flags and anthems (though again, given the 32 county nature of the GAA, I think they should be dropped) would be to have a debate about what "promoting the National identity" actually means, and also, more importantly, what the "National identity" is actually defined as.

Given the steps taken in recent years, starting with the lifting of the ban on foreign games, all the way through to the opening of Croke Park and the participation of British soldiers and PSNI in the GAA, i think a special Congress is in order to define this ideal, or redefine it in the light of modern society. It may be, after the debate, that flying a flag and playing an anthem may be contrary to promoting a national identity.

If Ireland (meaning the island of Ireland) is ever to have a "national identity" then it has to be something other than choosing either of the exclusive identities of the two "nations" who occupy the island. How such a "national identity" is to be forged I have no idea, but it will require a level of generosity and open-mindedness from both sides that we have not seen to date.

[Rossfan]

Whatever the National Identity" may be  its strengthening is to be done by "promotion and preservation of Gaelic games and pastimes".
The preservation bit is surely out of date now.
What are " Gaelic pastimes" I wonder?
Sounds like Riail 1.2 is overdue some modernisation/ updating.

[BennyCake]

Just reading Mick Foley's "The Bloodied Field" at the moment, which is a brilliant account of events leading up to Bloody Sunday 1920. Well worth reading especially for the examination of the intertwining of the GAA and the Volunteers/IRB (for obvious and necessary reasons) but also for the contortions that early patrons of the GAA had to use to persuade the authorities and the Catholic Church that they were non-political.

Fast forward 50 years and the same dilemmas faced the GAA in the Six Counties, with the same (at times deadly) consequences.

Judging by the debate above, I think it is worth a read for context.

My own best memory of the anthem is the 2013 semi final against Kerry - beautiful day, amazing atmosphere and there had been a minutes silence for Heffo and Paidi, so there was a real poignant quality to the air. Then the anthem starts, and everyone belts it out, practically to the end. Hair well and truly standing up by the end of it, and not just with the durable wax.

However, I wouldn't mind seeing it gone, provided its absence would make some kind of material difference to the Protestant participation in our games. Perhaps the best thing to do before dropping flags and anthems (though again, given the 32 county nature of the GAA, I think they should be dropped) would be to have a debate about what "promoting the National identity" actually means, and also, more importantly, what the "National identity" is actually defined as.

Given the steps taken in recent years, starting with the lifting of the ban on foreign games, all the way through to the opening of Croke Park and the participation of British soldiers and PSNI in the GAA, i think a special Congress is in order to define this ideal, or redefine it in the light of modern society. It may be, after the debate, that flying a flag and playing an anthem may be contrary to promoting a national identity.

If Ireland (meaning the island of Ireland) is ever to have a "national identity" then it has to be something other than choosing either of the exclusive identities of the two "nations" who occupy the island. How such a "national identity" is to be forged I have no idea, but it will require a level of generosity and open-mindedness from both sides that we have not seen to date.

The only way that'll happen is if all Northern Catholics were uprooted to the South, or all Protestants were shipped over to Britain. Seriously that's the only way. The North is a political cesspit, always was and always will be. The place just doesn't work and never will.

This idea of leading unionists down the path to a United Ireland and into an Irish or mixed identity/culture/society/tradition is just pie in the sky.

[foxcommander]

Just reading Mick Foley's "The Bloodied Field" at the moment, which is a brilliant account of events leading up to Bloody Sunday 1920. Well worth reading especially for the examination of the intertwining of the GAA and the Volunteers/IRB (for obvious and necessary reasons) but also for the contortions that early patrons of the GAA had to use to persuade the authorities and the Catholic Church that they were non-political.

Fast forward 50 years and the same dilemmas faced the GAA in the Six Counties, with the same (at times deadly) consequences.

Judging by the debate above, I think it is worth a read for context.

My own best memory of the anthem is the 2013 semi final against Kerry - beautiful day, amazing atmosphere and there had been a minutes silence for Heffo and Paidi, so there was a real poignant quality to the air. Then the anthem starts, and everyone belts it out, practically to the end. Hair well and truly standing up by the end of it, and not just with the durable wax.

However, I wouldn't mind seeing it gone, provided its absence would make some kind of material difference to the Protestant participation in our games. Perhaps the best thing to do before dropping flags and anthems (though again, given the 32 county nature of the GAA, I think they should be dropped) would be to have a debate about what "promoting the National identity" actually means, and also, more importantly, what the "National identity" is actually defined as.

Given the steps taken in recent years, starting with the lifting of the ban on foreign games, all the way through to the opening of Croke Park and the participation of British soldiers and PSNI in the GAA, i think a special Congress is in order to define this ideal, or redefine it in the light of modern society. It may be, after the debate, that flying a flag and playing an anthem may be contrary to promoting a national identity.

If Ireland (meaning the island of Ireland) is ever to have a "national identity" then it has to be something other than choosing either of the exclusive identities of the two "nations" who occupy the island. How such a "national identity" is to be forged I have no idea, but it will require a level of generosity and open-mindedness from both sides that we have not seen to date.

The only way that'll happen is if all Northern Catholics were uprooted to the South, or all Protestants were shipped over to Britain. Seriously that's the only way. The North is a political cesspit, always was and always will be. The place just doesn't work and never will.

This idea of leading unionists down the path to a United Ireland and into an Irish or mixed identity/culture/society/tradition is just pie in the sky.

The GAA is better off spending time and effort into growing the sports in places like the US and Australia rather than woo unionists who don't care.
The US particularly has huge potential if done right but sadly HQ doesn't seem to want to bother, leaving it to the many volunteers at the clubs to shoulder. Teams like Pittsburgh have their top mens squad consisting exclusively of non-irish players for example. Colleges are forming Hurling teams. It's a huge opportunity.

I wish Jarlath was as concerned at making sure the games were accessible to the Masters players - as pointed out on another thread.

[Eamonnca1]

Will the removal of the anthem and flag from GAA games encourage an influx of northern protestants to take up the sport?
Id argue that some would, most wouldn't. Most would still find fault and an excuse not to play. Most still see the GAA as the IRA at play. I'm not sure if that perception will ever change.

So is there a benefit to the GAA community, as we are now, for the removal of the flag and anthem?

Some are saying it is outdated/ not with the times/ a worn out novelty.

For me I've stood on the pitch facing the tricolour with clubmates & county mates in big matches with the anthem playing and the hairs just stand up on the back of my neck and a lump forms in my throat.
So, for me, I would miss them if they were removed.

So if we can't recruit every single northern Protestant them we shouldn't bother trying to attract any of them? Why does it have to be all or nothing?

[easytiger95]

Well Benny/Fox, I'll bow to your superior knowledge of the Northern situation. But given all that, I still think a root and branch reappraisal of the GAA's raison d'etre is long overdue. All due respect to the founders of the association, if that means jettisoning some of the language re safeguarding culture etc then so be it. I don't think, no matter how bad the situation that Gaelic "culture" as it exists now is in danger.

[Maguire01]

Even if it doesn't encourage more unionists it's a played out novelty that has worn off.

Has it now? That's your throwaway attitude towards it. Means nothing to you obviously.

It's an opinion shared by most of the contributors on this thread, all of whom are here as they have a shared interest in GAA.

Shouldn't the national anthem just be banned altogether this being the case? Is that what you're saying?

No, it isn't. Are you reading words that aren't there?

Should it be removed from other sporting occasions too? What about that rugby crowd using it?

I'm not too concerned with what other sports or sporting occasions do.

Surely the president or taoiseach should refrain from using the anthem at their ceremonies too if it's deemed divisive? Or have you no opinion on that either?

Now you're going way off topic just to try and pick an argument. I have no issue with the Taoiseach or President using the anthem, given that such scenarios are in the realm of politics and state functions, where anthems and flags are relevant. But as i've said, that's way off topic. This discussion is about the use of flags and anthems in the context of the GAA.

I fail to see how it's way off topic. Use of the flag and anthem is divisive in your opinion (and the opinion of many with GAA interests). It's either a yes or no answer. Which one eh?

I never actually said their use was divisive. I just consider them unnecessary at a match. That's why the context is relevant. For example, GSTQ playing and the Union Jack flying when the Queen is somewhere on a state visit = appropriate. GSTQ playing and the Union Jack flying at Northern Ireland matches at Windsor = not so appropriate. Context.

Unnecessary because you dislike it. Either you deem it divisive or not in any situation - it's the same song wherever. Your "context" argument is invalid.

Why? Just because you say so? I've clearly shown where an anthem can be 'contentious' in one context and not in another. If you don't understand that, then fair enough.

And it's not "unnecessary because I dislike it", it's unnecessary because you don't need a song to play a game of football. That's a fact. I've seen it happen.

[foxcommander]

Even if it doesn't encourage more unionists it's a played out novelty that has worn off.

Has it now? That's your throwaway attitude towards it. Means nothing to you obviously.

It's an opinion shared by most of the contributors on this thread, all of whom are here as they have a shared interest in GAA.

Shouldn't the national anthem just be banned altogether this being the case? Is that what you're saying?

No, it isn't. Are you reading words that aren't there?

Should it be removed from other sporting occasions too? What about that rugby crowd using it?

I'm not too concerned with what other sports or sporting occasions do.

Surely the president or taoiseach should refrain from using the anthem at their ceremonies too if it's deemed divisive? Or have you no opinion on that either?

Now you're going way off topic just to try and pick an argument. I have no issue with the Taoiseach or President using the anthem, given that such scenarios are in the realm of politics and state functions, where anthems and flags are relevant. But as i've said, that's way off topic. This discussion is about the use of flags and anthems in the context of the GAA.

I fail to see how it's way off topic. Use of the flag and anthem is divisive in your opinion (and the opinion of many with GAA interests). It's either a yes or no answer. Which one eh?

I never actually said their use was divisive. I just consider them unnecessary at a match. That's why the context is relevant. For example, GSTQ playing and the Union Jack flying when the Queen is somewhere on a state visit = appropriate. GSTQ playing and the Union Jack flying at Northern Ireland matches at Windsor = not so appropriate. Context.

Unnecessary because you dislike it. Either you deem it divisive or not in any situation - it's the same song wherever. Your "context" argument is invalid.

Why? Just because you say so? I've clearly shown where an anthem can be 'contentious' in one context and not in another. If you don't understand that, then fair enough.

And it's not "unnecessary because I dislike it", it's unnecessary because you don't need a song to play a game of football. That's a fact. I've seen it happen.

So you have a problem singing along to GSTQ at Windsor park but quite happy to sing along to it when you're in the crowd waving at the Queen?

[easytiger95]

Though i doubt he is, only one of those examples actually has the physical presence of a Queen - so you'd probably be more likely  to hear a song asking God to save her at that event. Whereas, unless the Linfield supporters club have been keeping it quiet, Lizzie doesn't have a season ticket for Windsor Park, but the football still goes on - so does it really need her theme tune?

I'd love a theme tune for myself.

[armaghniac]

While Burns was misquoted to some extent, and was promoting himself, he was unwise to raise this issue. Any attempt to progress this will bring out those for whom part of the attraction of the flag is that pisses off Protestants. They will fight with the forelock tuggers who would like to apologise for the existence of Ireland. Neither of these groups have the interests of Ireland or the GAA at heart, and nothing here is actually going to get more people in the GAA.

[Maguire01]

While Burns was misquoted to some extent, and was promoting himself, he was unwise to raise this issue. Any attempt to progress this will bring out those for whom part of the attraction of the flag is that pisses off Protestants. They will fight with the forelock tuggers who would like to apologise for the existence of Ireland. Neither of these groups have the interests of Ireland or the GAA at heart, and nothing here is actually going to get more people in the GAA.

I don't see anyone fitting that description on this thread. You're just throwing mud.

[Eamonnca1]

While Burns was misquoted to some extent, and was promoting himself, he was unwise to raise this issue. Any attempt to progress this will bring out those for whom part of the attraction of the flag is that pisses off Protestants. They will fight with the forelock tuggers who would like to apologise for the existence of Ireland. Neither of these groups have the interests of Ireland or the GAA at heart, and nothing here is actually going to get more people in the GAA.

There it is again. All or nothing. You either have to hate the ground the Brits walk on or you're a forelock-tugging bootlicker. Nothing in between.

[Rossfan]

When there's a senior double header in Croker the Anthem is only played before the second game.
How does that affect the playing of the first game???

[tonto1888]

While Burns was misquoted to some extent, and was promoting himself, he was unwise to raise this issue. Any attempt to progress this will bring out those for whom part of the attraction of the flag is that pisses off Protestants. They will fight with the forelock tuggers who would like to apologise for the existence of Ireland. Neither of these groups have the interests of Ireland or the GAA at heart, and nothing here is actually going to get more people in the GAA.

There it is again. All or nothing. You either have to hate the ground the Brits walk on or you're a forelock-tugging bootlicker. Nothing in between.

That's not exactly what was said tho. It looked like he was giving the extreme examples