What would you call a second tier Competition?

[deiseach]

The Larry.

The competition everyone would want to win.

[lenny]

Brolly is looking for a second tier competition. And was calling for it to be called the Paudi O'Se Cup. Not sure if a trophy should be called after a former Player/Manager? Any good names?

Every county runs Senior, intermediate and junior championships for their clubs. This works very successfully because everyone recognises that there are big clubs and small clubs. When a small club wins a junior championship they celebrate it and are rightly proud of themselves. This should be the model we have at county level also. The smaller counties should have a championship which they have a realistic chance of winning now and again. Leitrim, let's be honest, will never beat Dublin or Kerry. They shouldn't be playing or being judged at that level. There are at least 3 tiers of county teams. We can call them the senior All Ireland, Intermediate All Ireland and junior All Ireland. Roughly 10-12 teams could compete in each and could be decided by league placings. The provincial championships could be run off separately early in the season instead of the Mckenna cup etc.

[Farrandeelin]

Well said lenny. Wexford had no business being on the same pitch as Down going by league standings...

[AZOffaly]

OK, lets do this so. For Arguments sake, we'll say the top 10, 10 and last 12 (including London).

So division 1 + the top 2 from Division 2 would be the 'Senior'
rest of Division 2 + the top 4 from Division 3 would be intermediate
The rest would be Junior.

I keep asking what the problem is that we are sorting out?
So senior is Cork, Dublin, Monaghan, Donegal, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone, Derry, Down and Roscommon.
Intermeditate is Meath, Galway, Cavan, Laois, Westmeath, Kildare, Fermanagh, Armagh. Tipperary, Sligo
Junior is Clare, Limerick, Louth, Wexford, Longford, Offaly, Antrim, Leitrim, Carlow, Waterford, Wicklow and London.


From just the results to date this year, Antrim wouldn't have been allowed play, and beat, Laois. Down wouldn't have had to be beaten by Wexford and Sligo wouldn't have been allowed on the same field as Roscommon.

Again, what problem are we solving?

[lenny]

Well said lenny. Wexford had no business being on the same pitch as Down going by league standings...

And how far will Wexford go? In a real freak year they might make the last 12 or even the quarter finals. Would they not be better playing in an Intermediate championship where they had a realistic chance to win or even a junior depending on their league position. How would they fare against dublin, kerry or donegal? Yes the samller counties will get freak results and sometimes can get a fantastic run taking them to the last 12 or so but when they come up against a top side it all ends quickly. The 3 tier system works really well at club level and there is no reason it wouldn't work at county level.

[magpie seanie]

Why do people continually refer to the league division counties are in as if it has some relevance to their championship pedigree or potential? Lazy, stupid approach.

[lenny]

OK, lets do this so. For Arguments sake, we'll say the top 10, 10 and last 12 (including London).

So division 1 + the top 2 from Division 2 would be the 'Senior'
rest of Division 2 + the top 4 from Division 3 would be intermediate
The rest would be Junior.

I keep asking what the problem is that we are sorting out?
So senior is Cork, Dublin, Monaghan, Donegal, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone, Derry, Down and Roscommon.
Intermeditate is Meath, Galway, Cavan, Laois, Westmeath, Kildare, Fermanagh, Armagh. Tipperary, Sligo
Junior is Clare, Limerick, Louth, Wexford, Longford, Offaly, Antrim, Leitrim, Carlow, Waterford, Wicklow and London.


From just the results to date this year, Antrim wouldn't have been allowed play, and beat, Laois. Down wouldn't have had to be beaten by Wexford and Sligo wouldn't have been allowed on the same field as Roscommon.

Again, what problem are we solving?

Yes, antrim had a great day beating laois but it's a one off and they won't get any medals for that. Would they not be better playing in a junior championship with a real chance of winning it now and again.

[AZOffaly]

Why do people continually refer to the league division counties are in as if it has some relevance to their championship pedigree or potential? Lazy, stupid approach.

I'd imagine because if you are going to enforce championship apartheid, the league standings are as logical a place to start as any other. It would also make the league even more relevant I suppose.

Lenny, aren't those days the reason we all play and support the games? Whether Antrim would knock as much joy out of winning a Junior Championship I don't know, but experience of the Tommy Murphy Cup would suggest not. Also the way the Christy Ring Nicky Rackard and Lory Meagher Cups are treated wouldn't inspire me as a player.

I want Offaly to play against Dublin, Kildare and Meath. I don't know that Offaly would be inspired by winning a Junior championship game against Waterford. At least when they beat Waterford this time around they've set themselves a task against Kildare.

It seems to me that the problem is : We want Dublin to only play the top 5 teams in the country, and we don't want the bottom 5 to play at all.

[lenny]

Why do people continually refer to the league division counties are in as if it has some relevance to their championship pedigree or potential? Lazy, stupid approach.

I'd imagine because if you are going to enforce championship apartheid, the league standings are as logical a place to start as any other. It would also make the league even more relevant I suppose.

Lenny, aren't those days the reason we all play and support the games? Whether Antrim would knock as much joy out of winning a Junior Championship I don't know, but experience of the Tommy Murphy Cup would suggest not. Also the way the Christy Ring Nicky Rackard and Lory Meagher Cups are treated wouldn't inspire me as a player.

I want Offaly to play against Dublin, Kildare and Meath. I don't know that Offaly would be inspired by winning a Junior championship game against Waterford. At least when they beat Waterford this time around they've set themselves a task against Kildare.

It seems to me that the problem is : We want Dublin to only play the top 5 teams in the country, and we don't want the bottom 5 to play at all.

You may be right. It's only a suggestion. Because the senior, intermediate and junior systems are well embedded at club level everyone is happy with them and junior club sides aren't arguing that they should be playing the big senior clubs, they are realistic enough to know thatnthey would get stuffed. The tommy murphy cup was set up for teams knocked out of the championship, ie a fall back. the way i see it if teams just entered at their own level they could set themselves the realistic target of winning a championship. they would then automatically move up to the next tier as happens at club level.  From a Derry point of view I can see no realistic chance of us winning an all ireland at the moment. We are probably at the lower end of senior and may be more of an intermediate team. If we were in an intermediate championship we would have a realistic chance to win and i think that would be good for the development of the young players. As it is if we get a good run in the qualifiers we could reach the last 12 or maybe even qfs. It's only delaying the inevitable though because we aren't good enough to beat Dublin or Kerry and a couple of the other top teams.

[Esmarelda]

It's a cultural thing.

At the minute it's likely that Antrim, Wexford and Westmeath would prefer to enjoy the likes of their recent victories in the All-Ireland series and ultimately bow out than to enter a lower standard competition and have a chance of winning it.

[deiseach]

Look at the World Cup. For many countries reaching the tournament and not embarrassing yourself in it is the end in itself. There are all kinds of regional variations and progress through the competition, except at the final stages, is asymmetrical. Yet despite all these quirks, the final usually features two of the best sides around and despite the anything-can-happen nature of the game the winner usually comes from the same old faces. Can you imagine telling De Boyz in Grayin that we were only allowed play with the big boys if we pulled our socks up? Can you imagine telling Wales or Norn Iron that surely they rather a chance of winning something?

[AZOffaly]

Hey, Ireland won that Iceland Tri Angular thing!

[twohands!!!]

Why do people continually refer to the league division counties are in as if it has some relevance to their championship pedigree or potential? Lazy, stupid approach.

Because there is an extremely high correlation between league standings and championship success.

34 championship games played so far this year and only 3 games where a side beat opposition who played in a higher division than them in the league this year.

[Keyser soze]

Why do people continually refer to the league division counties are in as if it has some relevance to their championship pedigree or potential? Lazy, stupid approach.

I'd imagine because if you are going to enforce championship apartheid, the league standings are as logical a place to start as any other. It would also make the league even more relevant I suppose.

Lenny, aren't those days the reason we all play and support the games? Whether Antrim would knock as much joy out of winning a Junior Championship I don't know, but experience of the Tommy Murphy Cup would suggest not. Also the way the Christy Ring Nicky Rackard and Lory Meagher Cups are treated wouldn't inspire me as a player.

I want Offaly to play against Dublin, Kildare and Meath. I don't know that Offaly would be inspired by winning a Junior championship game against Waterford. At least when they beat Waterford this time around they've set themselves a task against Kildare.

It seems to me that the problem is : We want Dublin to only play the top 5 teams in the country, and we don't want the bottom 5 to play at all.

You may be right. It's only a suggestion. Because the senior, intermediate and junior systems are well embedded at club level everyone is happy with them and junior club sides aren't arguing that they should be playing the big senior clubs, they are realistic enough to know thatnthey would get stuffed. The tommy murphy cup was set up for teams knocked out of the championship, ie a fall back. the way i see it if teams just entered at their own level they could set themselves the realistic target of winning a championship. they would then automatically move up to the next tier as happens at club level.  From a Derry point of view I can see no realistic chance of us winning an all ireland at the moment. We are probably at the lower end of senior and may be more of an intermediate team. If we were in an intermediate championship we would have a realistic chance to win and i think that would be good for the development of the young players. As it is if we get a good run in the qualifiers we could reach the last 12 or maybe even qfs. It's only delaying the inevitable though because we aren't good enough to beat Dublin or Kerry and a couple of the other top teams.

It looks like you are advocating a top four competition! Why not just go the whole hog and have a top one!!! All this nasty competitive stuff and teams beatin other teams and unfair stuff like that....it's just gotta stop.

[twohands!!!]

Lenny, aren't those days the reason we all play and support the games? Whether Antrim would knock as much joy out of winning a Junior Championship I don't know, but experience of the Tommy Murphy Cup would suggest not. Also the way the Christy Ring Nicky Rackard and Lory Meagher Cups are treated wouldn't inspire me as a player.

I want Offaly to play against Dublin, Kildare and Meath. I don't know that Offaly would be inspired by winning a Junior championship game against Waterford. At least when they beat Waterford this time around they've set themselves a task against Kildare.

It seems to me that the problem is : We want Dublin to only play the top 5 teams in the country, and we don't want the bottom 5 to play at all.

Pretty sure Declan Browne has talked about he felt about captaining Tipp to win the Tommy Murphy cup. Look at how various hurling teams have reacted to winning the various "lesser" competitions. Seemed to me that there was a severe lack of joy being felt by the various victors. The way the hurling competitions are treated aren't ideal but I'd imagine if you put it to a vote amongst footballers in the lesser counties between competing in similar competitions versus going out in the championship each year with the main goal of hoping to avoid a battering I know where my money would be going.

So far this year teams that played in Division 4 have played 17 championship games -and have racked up 14 losses with 2 of the 3 wins being where one Division 4 side beat another Division 4 side. The other was the shock win of Antrim over Laois.

Basically for Division 4 teams in the championship they are simply making up the numbers - their only chance of progression is hoping to be drawn against other Division 4 teams or coming up against a side from higher up the divisions who turn in an absolute nightmare performance on the day.

Some will say that's fine in sport you are always going to have losers - however the thing is a lot of these sides have spoken about the fact that they are not happy with the current situation. It's not as if it's a case that you have the Dublins and the Kerrys of the world coming out demanding that they be gotten rid of. You have had managers of these counties - the lads who are up against the coalface coming out talking about alternatives.

The fact that these teams constantly seem to have issues with getting lads even willing to tog out to represent their county says a world to me about how bad the situation is, with Waterford not even able to name 24 players in their squad for their last game.