vegetarians

[omaghjoe]

Eammon first off  I would never want to judge your personality based on what your diet. Although I live beside a vegan restaurant and hate the sight of the hipster types that go there, with their prius cars and alternative looks, its kinda hard not to put them in a box where vegetarianism isn't just part of their fashionable self projection. Anyway I probably wont even notice them if they didnt keep taking a parking space outside my house!

Anyway its the ideology behind it that I can't get my head around. Now first off I am willing to let some cultures work away with whatever they are doing because I don't understand it. Take Indian culture for example they don't want to eat meat because of religious reasons, as it is possible that a animal may be a reincarnation of someone that died. Weirdly I am open to this reasoning as they have been doing it for thousands of years and who am I to start questioning a culture that I don't fully understand?

However the rise in popularity in vegetarianism in Western culture I feel I am better placed to question, as it has risen out of my culture and tradition. It seems there is two trains of thought, first one seems to be that its healthier. Now there is little or no evidence of this, and only after two or three generations of vegeterians pass will we be in a position to judge this. The logic that its healtier seems to be based on the fact we are told foods like fruit and veg are good for you so if you eat them all the time that must be even better for you. Sorry that just aint good enough evidence for me, it ignores the fact that the most nutrition rich foods are meats and fishes.

The second train of thought seems to be from an animal welfare point of view, which I find hard to rationalise also. Now while it is true that there are animals which we have emotional attachments to in western culture like dogs and horses and so on that we never eat. However it seems like that standard has been taken and applied to all animals no matter whether we traditionally ate them or not. In saying that I dont believe in bad treatment of animals that we do eat, it totally spoils the taste for a start.  I've been up the 5 and seen those feed lots also, not pleasant I agree but never considered becoming veggie because of it. I would also take you up on the milk, the milk in America is rotten, ultra pasteurized rubbish coming from maize fed cows that never see the light of day, its night and day between that and Irish milk. Also it occurred to me that most Americans have never tasted cream, real proper whipping cream, the only thing they have had is that crap you get on top of your starbucks which has no taste whatsoever.

There is another train of thought emerging which you touched on that the planet is not going to be able to feed us all and I think you and I have been through this before. Which I find very hard to swallow considering the fact that countries India, China and Bangladesh are net exporters of food.

I am a great believer in tradition and that unless there is some other logical reasoning stick with what your traditions are so I see no reason why to change from the traditional diet  I was feed with unless there is some proper scientific evidence.

On the other hand food fashions and marketing are a great example of how America has been completely shafted by not sticking to their traditions. Nutritionists told the public they should eat this and that and food marketing told them the same thing, the public followed suit believing that their diets were old fashioned, bad for you and boring. However after a generation or two the nutritionists found that the processed foods they championed were lacking in the nutrients that the traditional diets had and they began to fortify the processed foods with vitamins and minerals, they also found that processed vegetable fat was killing people. And in the past few years regarding the obesity epidemic they have also found that animal fats cause little or no harm in this regard and almost all the problems comes from sugar...another plant. Anyway the point that I am trying to make is that the reason for America's fad/fashionable diets is a reaction to the loss of their traditional diets and coerced into unhealthy industrial diets.

You said you became vegetarian because you eat out for a month every meal. That doesn't make sense, you just should have stopped eating out, eating out in America is a processed fats and sugar extravagansa and that is more than likely what was causing your digestive system to react poorly. A more logical action might be to stop eating sugar and processed fats Also your point on the hunter-gathers expending more energy, may be true however the calories in does not equal calories out especially when you are eating meat which has zero sugar.

With all that said tho the biggest problem I have with veggie food is that its bland and disgusting, I am sure you could used to it but for me taste experience is one of the great things about life and would find it hard to give that up for misplaced reasoning

Now with all that said tho, I don't think vegetarianism is necessarily bad or unhealthy but we will find out in a few generations as it whether it is or not, I'm just not willing to be part of an experiment with flawed reasoning.

[Eamonnca1]

I know that vegetables get sprayed with all sorts of pesticides and stuff, but I'd still rather take my chances with them than with meat. The chances of fecal contamination in meat are pretty high, not so much with vegetables because overworked and underpaid workers on a meat processing production line have to quickly separate the shit-containing guts from the muscle when they're processing meat, no so much when handling spinach.

I don't subscribe to the idea that we're running out of food, I'm well aware of our ability to innovate and keep ahead of demand. My environmental concern is with the effect on climate change. Meat-based agriculture is a huge contributor to greenhouse gases. If you bypass the meat and get your energy directly from the plant, you reduce greenhouse gas emissions as well as cutting out a lot of other pollution problems.

My view of animals has changed quite a bit in recent years. I used to ignore the suffering of animals, but I can't any longer. They say that pigs are as intelligent and capable of forming relationships with humans as dogs are, but whether it's through judging by their appearance or tradition or whatever, we aren't conditioned to think of them in the same way we think about dogs, cats and horses. Maybe it's because companion animals had other roles to play in history and they were more use to us alive, and they've gotten a pass as a result.

I don't subscribe to 'fad' diets either. In fact I've never 'gone on a diet.' I make subtle adjustments to my eating habits, which is much easier to keep up.

The big sugar problem in America right now is refined sugar, specifically High Fructose Corn Syrup. This is part of the same problem of the lobbying power of Big Agriculture that has politicians in its pocket. If the corn farmers of Iowa had less political clout thanks to that state's early start in the presidential election cycle, less of the food supply would be infested with that garbage. The best way to avoid it is to avoid processed foods, meat-containing or otherwise. Refined sugar is not a vegetarian problem, it's a processed foods problem.

If you think vegetarian food doesn't taste good then the problem isn't that you've been trying vegetarian food. You've simply been trying food that doesn't taste good. There's plenty of meat-based dishes that I never liked, God knows I was always repulsed by fish. I you tried some of my sister's cooking (vegetarian since the 80s) you'd change your mind on that point. She sometimes cooks vegetarian dishes and feeds them to unsuspecting carnivores who don't know they're eating a meat-free meal until she tells them. Her stuff is delicious, and there's plenty of vegetarian restaurants that serve great-tasting food that's worth eating for its flavor in its own right.

You said you became vegetarian because you eat out for a month every meal.

Pardon?

[omaghjoe]

Don't agree with you regarding the pigs, just cause they might be able to form relationships with humans doesnt change their current relationship which is that we have been farming eating them for milenia, that they taste good, constitute a good portion of our diet and are good for us. Wouldn't like to tell your theory to a neighbour of mine who got his boyo bit of by a boar years ago!

Comparing pesticides which are guaranteed to be on non-organic plant foods with the remote chance of fecal matter getting on meat is not a fair comparison. Spinach?? come on...I eat a lot of it but its best described as a herb or spice....there to deflect and enhance flavours, its got no protein fat or starch so its practically useless to us nutritionally apart from the minerals and vitmains, which you could get anyway from meat. BTW I highly recommend cooking it in pork fat, delicious

Didnt you say eating out for a month started you on the veggism? Also just for clarification I was including all non traditional diets in the fad diets category which include veggie and vegan diets, probably could throw in the mainstream American diet to that as well.

True I may have been eating the wrong veggie meals or whatever but I have eaten various meals that veggies have who said it was good and well to put it simply they werent. Although TBF I often have that problem in America with all meals, some of the shit they eat here is just rotten! Not that I dont think that its possible to make good veggie meals or that I haven't had any, but my point is that it is harder to make veggie food taste good and a very good veggie meal will never compare to a very good nonveg one. You cant conjure up the taste of lamb for example, or something something as refined as foie gras. Here's another one, roast potatoes in goose fat, absolutely divine.

Its true that refined corn sugars may be worse for us than cane or beet sugar but too much sugar in any form helps cause dietary diseases.

Your right tho about the global warming, no doubt that beef farming emits more greenhouse gases and the science is starting to point very firmly towards their contribution to global warming. Tho I don't think farming is the main culprit, Im sure you havent given up driving your car for example.... but thats another debate.

Here's the deal Eamonn I have no problem with you doing it, its just I cant see the reasoning in it, but perhaps the crucial factor is  I wouldn't be prepared to give up an experience that I love for it.

[dferg]

I'd imagine most people are vegetarians because they are uncomfortable with the cruelty of modern farming practices and it has very little to do with being healthy. It's not hard to understand why someone would want to be a vegetarian though to someone who is used to a carnivorour diet (me) I think it would be a struggle to give up eating meat completely.

[Main Street]

What I read OmaghJoe, is a shock exclusive,  a  tyrone man is a carnivore.
That he has little awareness of cuisine outside his tradition, possibly has little  culinary imagination and competence.
That he is  compliant to his  judean- christian  tradition and evidently hasn't a clue about Hinduism, honestly admits he hasn't a clue.
yet still expresses some silly schoolyard prejudiced  myths about Hindu spiritual beliefs  re vegetarianism and reincarnation.
That you are deficient in the scientific matters, that you doggedly hold onto your belief system and refuse to change ways.

Is that close to the mark   

[omaghjoe]

What I read OmaghJoe, is a shock exclusive,  a  tyrone man is a carnivore.
That he has little awareness of cuisine outside his tradition, possibly has little  culinary imagination and competence.
That he is  compliant to his  judean- christian  tradition and evidently hasn't a clue about Hinduism, honestly admits he hasn't a clue.
yet still expresses some silly schoolyard prejudiced  myths about Hindu spiritual beliefs  re vegetarianism and reincarnation.
That you are deficient in the scientific matters, that you doggedly hold onto your belief system and refuse to change ways.

Is that close to the mark   

Do you not think it ironic that you a vegetarian is calling me out on doggedly holding onto a belief system? I eat all types of cuisines including vegetarian. I often cook from other ethnic cuisines but I mostly prefer to eat and cook from my own.

I am not entirely sure what religion has to do with this, I merely pointed out that in Indian culture vegetarianism is observed and I don't fully understand it so I wouldn't wish to cast judgement on it, unlike its emergence in Western Culture where I feel I am better placed to examine the rational behind it. Regarding the statement linking vegetarianism to reincarnation I was specifically told this by a Hindu, that the killing and eating of animals is considered bad for your soul or karma because they could be the reincarnation of their ancestors. However if you wish to enlighten us further go ahead..

Although just to update you the Judeo/Christian term has been superseded by Abrahamic these days, not that I was talking about that umbrella term when talking about tradition. I was refering about the specific tradition that was handed down to me from my parents, not Abrahamic, Christian, Western, Irish or even Tyrone, although it could be argued that it falls into all of these.

If you wish to address any of my actual points on vegetarianism tho go ahead, and if you wish to start a new thread about religion tho you are free to do that also.

I am well convinced that you were run out of Monaghan along time ago tho eh?......? Maybe your hanging around a certain island in Fermanagh?

[pullhard]

Yikes Joe, you have a serious issue with veggies. Was that car parking space that important that you still bear such a grudge? Are you a closet Veggie? You make some fairly swiping statements and come across as closed minded (I'm sure you not), backed up by hearsay and pseudo science; do you work for the Daily Mail?

[Eamonnca1]

I was hoping this thread could shed a bit of light on the topic, but this is not productive at this point.

[pullhard]

Think you are right E thanks your insight and philosophy behind you vegetarianism

P.s. your sis sounds like an amazing chef!

[omaghjoe]

Listen lads I am only trying to ask a few questions behind the thinking behind it, as you can probably tell from my posts I am greatly interested in this subject area of food and diet and I feel that it is a subject area that needs questions to be asked off, all diets that is! This thread is a public forum on vegetarianism and just because I am asking questions into the logic of it does not mean I do not like veggies.

I have no grudge against veggies, indeed I have a great many friends who are, however when I ask questions about it they get defensive almost like I have questioned their right to exist. That's fine tho because they don't overly advertise the fact that they are veggies so I usually let the subject lie, although its hard not to when food comes up. This however is a public forum on vegetarianism so I feel I should be able to ask questions and get some answers on it without people becoming defensive.

True Main St and I have got into a little spat but that's more about personalities and a bit of slagging no need to take that seriously in regards to the questions I have asked about vegetarianism. 

[Brick Tamlin]

Il admit personality has alalot to do with it. Any veggies I know just happen to be self righteous, groovy, hippy fcukwits that love to advertise it or pontificafe about it. They be full of shit usually and think they occupy some sort of higher stream of thought.

[Eamonnca1]

Il admit personality has alalot to do with it. Any veggies I know just happen to be self righteous, groovy, hippy fcukwits that love to advertise it or pontificafe about it. They be full of shit usually and think they occupy some sort of higher stream of thought.

See what I mean?

[Brick Tamlin]

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure you're dead on and not like that. Sure it's only my experience.

[Olly]

Il admit personality has alalot to do with it. Any veggies I know just happen to be self righteous, groovy, hippy fcukwits that love to advertise it or pontificafe about it. They be full of shit usually and think they occupy some sort of higher stream of thought.

Well bloody said.

See you vegetarians - you'll be responsible for the destruction of the human race. We only got to this point by ruling the roost over other animals. If we start having a conscience about chewing on meat then before you know it you'll have gangs of pigs and cows roaming the neighbourhood eating you. It's survival of the fittest on this spinning rock and we're only on it for a while and you might as well be king dick and dominate other animals. You people make me sick. You sit there in your houses with your wifi and the only reason you have those luxuries is because over thousands and maybe hundreds of years we got to the top of the food chain by being ruthless. Pigs, cattle, fish, birds - they all know it. You know it. As soon as they get a whiff that we're having doubts about devouring them they'll eat us. Remember the dinosaurs etc.

And by the way, eating meat makes you stronger and fitter. Any vegetarians I know look sick and are dicks.

[Eamonnca1]

If vegetarians are all assholes and all meat eaters are dead on, this isn't a very representative thread. Is it? So far all the abuse has been coming our way. I've yet to lecture anyone with the "meat is murder" talking point, and yet I'm being made to feel like I have to defend my dietary choice or my view of animals.