Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 233139 times)

general_lee

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3390 on: May 02, 2021, 09:17:53 AM »
Touched a raw nerve did we? ;D
Certainly not. I merely pointed out that the poll was carried out by probably the most non-impartial media group in Ireland and you came back with that.

It just sort of defeats the purpose of a (once sensible) discussion board if morons are going to constantly refer to everyone from the north who wants their country unified as a shinnerbot. (Youíd maybe be more at home on boards.ie)

Iíve voted SF before and more than likely will do so again, I make no secret of that. Itís not out of some sort of blind loyalty to Connolly House and Iím more than happy to criticise them when itís warranted. My vote is never guaranteed and Iíve voted for other parties before in the past.

Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3391 on: May 02, 2021, 10:15:45 AM »
I find it very disappointing that there was so little response to this opinion poll which was carried out by a polling company who no doubt used the usual scientific/statistical methods.
A couple of people saying they were in favour of a UI no matter what and General Lee thinking it was just a survey of Independent readers and then rubbishing it because that Paper commissioned the poll.
This on a Board where Northerners are the majority and the majority of them would be SF voters.
A goodly number of them likely members of that party.
The findings of 35/44/21 seem reasonably accurate for the North. The 44 tallying with the Unionist vote in recent elections and the pro Brexit vote.
In a real Referendum how many of the 21 can "we" get to vote for UI?
Again the amount of people who wouldn't be prepared to pay  more tax for a UI wouldn't be too far out.
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Main Street

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3392 on: May 02, 2021, 01:46:10 PM »
Touched a raw nerve did we? ;D
Certainly not. I merely pointed out that the poll was carried out by probably the most non-impartial media group in Ireland and you came back with that.

It just sort of defeats the purpose of a (once sensible) discussion board if morons are going to constantly refer to everyone from the north who wants their country unified as a shinnerbot. (Youíd maybe be more at home on boards.ie)

Iíve voted SF before and more than likely will do so again, I make no secret of that. Itís not out of some sort of blind loyalty to Connolly House and Iím more than happy to criticise them when itís warranted. My vote is never guaranteed and Iíve voted for other parties before in the past.
The question was asked about are you willing to pay higher taxes to fund a UI, as if most people willingly pay taxes as a given concept. And what exactly are the extra costs and benifits?


IT  business journalist Eoin Kennedy  sets out the case in an interesting article that the subvention issue is largely a red herring in the scheme of a UI, according to DCU study https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/northern-ireland-s-9-4bn-subvention-and-the-cost-of-irish-unity-1.4553553

The subvention would diminish to 2.5m p/a  but subject to variables.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 01:48:19 PM by Main Street »

weareros

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3393 on: May 02, 2021, 02:57:26 PM »
Main thing I would take from Indo poll.
Those who want a border poll North & South are largest segments
It continues a trend of decline in pro-Union vote (at 44%) even if UI is still 9 points behind.
There is now an expectation of a UI North & South within a reasonable timeframe
It should light a fire up the Gov and Nationalist parties that they need to start singing the same tune on the economics and health, and start giving clarity.
The Indo is a bit of a dick for trying to make the narrative about two thirds majority required. How about asking the question: should a 33% or 25% minority get to decide for everyone else?

balladmaker

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3394 on: May 03, 2021, 02:07:10 AM »
Main thing I would take from Indo poll.
Those who want a border poll North & South are largest segments
It continues a trend of decline in pro-Union vote (at 44%) even if UI is still 9 points behind.
There is now an expectation of a UI North & South within a reasonable timeframe
It should light a fire up the Gov and Nationalist parties that they need to start singing the same tune on the economics and health, and start giving clarity.
The Indo is a bit of a dick for trying to make the narrative about two thirds majority required. How about asking the question: should a 33% or 25% minority get to decide for everyone else?

Fully agree.  Just because it is getting close does not mean the goal posts should move .... any vote on Irish reunification is 50% + 1 ... that's called democracy.

Snapchap

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3395 on: May 03, 2021, 08:48:07 AM »
Such chat is ultimately futile. The GFA lays out the requirements for a border poll to pass. It's set in stone. The establishment can jump up and down all they like and arrogantly try to change the goalposts, but they can't succeed.

Dissidents have long argued that SF were conned by the GFA and that a border poll will never be allowed happen/pass. Consider for a second what message out sends out when the establishment is actively trying to change the goalposts to ensure a border poll wont pass. Wreckless stuff which to some people may add weight to what dissidents have been arguing about the GFA and which also serves to stoke up/legitimise any violent loyalist reaction to a border poll passing.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 10:52:40 AM by Snapchap »

Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3396 on: May 03, 2021, 02:17:39 PM »
I see in the 6 Cos  28 % identify as Irish, 33% as British and 33% as "Northern Irish"
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Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3397 on: May 03, 2021, 02:23:35 PM »
I see in the 6 Cos  28 % identify as Irish, 33% as British and 33% as "Northern Irish"

A good clip around the back of the ear needed there

grounded

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3398 on: May 03, 2021, 02:46:00 PM »
Main thing I would take from Indo poll.
Those who want a border poll North & South are largest segments
It continues a trend of decline in pro-Union vote (at 44%) even if UI is still 9 points behind.
There is now an expectation of a UI North & South within a reasonable timeframe
It should light a fire up the Gov and Nationalist parties that they need to start singing the same tune on the economics and health, and start giving clarity.
The Indo is a bit of a dick for trying to make the narrative about two thirds majority required. How about asking the question: should a 33% or 25% minority get to decide for everyone else?

Fully agree.  Just because it is getting close does not mean the goal posts should move .... any vote on Irish reunification is 50% + 1 ... that's called democracy.

Correct. More and more you will see this line  being put forward. I remember Seamus Mallon talking about this and obviously the usual suspects like John Bruton and the Indo group jumping on the band wagon.
      As you said its all in the GFA. 
The election in Scotland on Thursday will potentially have a lot more impact on a future  UI than a small poll commisioned by the Indo.
     

Tubberman

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3399 on: May 03, 2021, 07:16:09 PM »
Good to see the the SDLP, and Matthew O'Toole in particular,  starting a reasoned conversation about what a United Ireland would look like. SF could learn from them, but they may not want to.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/belfast-agreement-not-a-postdated-cheque-for-irish-unity-1.4553658?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true
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weareros

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3400 on: May 03, 2021, 08:44:51 PM »
If I read correctly there was a bit more of their poll which they stuck in todayís paper - a majority of fans North and South were in favour of All-Ireland soccer team. In north it was 45% for and only 20% against. I guess a lot unknown. But the against number is quite low. I guess two shite teams on island will do that.

Applesisapples

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3401 on: May 04, 2021, 02:58:20 PM »
Latest Lucid Polls in NI putting it 47/53 with don't knows excluded. 50% of U45's in favour. I guess on the face of it there is a direction of travel. I'd be with General Lee when it comes to SF. Whatever you think of the Indo though, few Northern Nationalists would want to see a UI that was going to cost them in the long run. The challenge as I keep pointing out is for those who want a poll now or in 5 years to demonstrate the impact financially. I do believe that in the long term it would be beneficial for all, but for those 55+ the long term is not a consideration. I also believe that given the right context and agreement both Britain and the EU would offer short to medium term funding if it would put to bed the Irish Question, that is another challenge for poll supporters.

tiempo

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3402 on: May 04, 2021, 03:30:25 PM »
Latest Lucid Polls in NI putting it 47/53 with don't knows excluded. 50% of U45's in favour. I guess on the face of it there is a direction of travel. I'd be with General Lee when it comes to SF. Whatever you think of the Indo though, few Northern Nationalists would want to see a UI that was going to cost them in the long run. The challenge as I keep pointing out is for those who want a poll now or in 5 years to demonstrate the impact financially. I do believe that in the long term it would be beneficial for all, but for those 55+ the long term is not a consideration. I also believe that given the right context and agreement both Britain and the EU would offer short to medium term funding if it would put to bed the Irish Question, that is another challenge for poll supporters.

Have heard the Yanks mentioned in this context too

Angelo

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3403 on: May 04, 2021, 03:39:08 PM »
Good to see the the SDLP, and Matthew O'Toole in particular,  starting a reasoned conversation about what a United Ireland would look like. SF could learn from them, but they may not want to.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/belfast-agreement-not-a-postdated-cheque-for-irish-unity-1.4553658?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true

FF and FG are the people who need to learn about starting a conversation about a UI.

But don't let the truth get in the way of a silly rant.
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GiveItToTheShooters

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3404 on: May 04, 2021, 03:51:31 PM »
Latest Lucid Polls in NI putting it 47/53 with don't knows excluded. 50% of U45's in favour. I guess on the face of it there is a direction of travel. I'd be with General Lee when it comes to SF. Whatever you think of the Indo though, few Northern Nationalists would want to see a UI that was going to cost them in the long run. The challenge as I keep pointing out is for those who want a poll now or in 5 years to demonstrate the impact financially. I do believe that in the long term it would be beneficial for all, but for those 55+ the long term is not a consideration. I also believe that given the right context and agreement both Britain and the EU would offer short to medium term funding if it would put to bed the Irish Question, that is another challenge for poll supporters.
The old tight bastards whoíll be dead within a generation or so and who value the queens pound over the reunification of their country shouldnít be able to ruin it for the rest of us.