The GAA Rat Race

[AZOffaly]

Paul Flynn is about 2 stone away from being a rugby league player.
He is a serious athlete though.

I'm no expert on this, but I think you're making Indiana's point for him. He's saying lads are spending *too much* time in the Gym, and trying to follow programs designed for other sports, such as rugby and rugby league, when a less intensive gym program, designed to make them *strong enough* for gaelic games, thereby allowing them to concentrate more on skills development, would be better.

In fairness he's been consistent on this for years. I remember his 'gym monkeys' comment about Dublin from several years ago.

[Bingo]

I'd agree with your there AZ, the lads are only helping Indiana make his point.

Its clear that the way the GAA is going that some coaches are defaulting to S&C programmes that aren't GAA specific. The result is lads spending time bench pressing big weights and doing Olympic lifts with very poor technique.

He isn't saying that they shouldn't be in the Gym, just a lot less and doing differently than they are now.

[Jinxy]

He's doing the same thing you are both doing by saying S&C = GYM = big weights.

It's all in aid of the professional approach! However it's trying to shoe horn that into an amateur structure. But we're not even remotely professional. All of our lads would be blown out of it by professional contact sportsmen from other codes.

That's why it's a complete folly the amount of strength and conditioning training senior  GAA players do. It's trying to attain a "professional" standard - a standard which they will never ever hit. Yet their skills go to pot because of it- they don't enjoy it. And the reasons they don't enjoy it is because every bloody down day is spent in the fecking gym.

I'm from S&C and I'd nearly bar some lads from the gym some evenings. Gaelic Football is played with a football not a dumb-bell. It's a pity some inter county managers wouldn't realise that and a greater pity the GAA don't. Because if they did they'd organise a better fixture list with a greater ratio of games to training and a proper player welfare programme outlining what teams and how many teams an individual player can line out for and impose serious sanctions on counties who break the rules.

Who is he talking about?
Club players?
County players?
We can all say, "I know a lad who is doing such and such because he heard some rugby player does it".
Who are the gym monkeys now?
Who are the inter county managers that are killing their players with heavy weights?
Dublin are the best conditioned team in the country and they are, to my mind, the team with the highest skill levels.
It's not a zero sum game.
So the question is, if Dublin have got the balance right, and Kerry have got the balance right, then who are the counties that are doing MORE than them in the gym?
Lifting bigger weights and doing things arseways in general.

[AZOffaly]

No, he's not. Unless I'm completely misreading him, he's saying some S&C programs being followed are wrong BECAUSE they are all in the gym lifting big weights and following programs designed for other sports.

You are correct in that he hasn't said which players/teams he has observed or heard of doing this.

[Jinxy]

I'd be very curious, given how much S&C knowledge in the GAA has come on, to know which counties he is talking about.
If he's talking about club level then that's a different issue entirely.
The old Armagh model of weight training is long gone.
Players are much leaner and athletic in general now.
There are very few players around that I see and think, "He should lay off the weights".

[AZOffaly]

I said I'm no expert in this, and I'm conscious now that I'm veering into the territory of speaking for Indiana, when he's well able to do that himself

I just thought you seemed to be in violent agreement with him in that he was saying that players following rugby league programs was wrong, and then Paul Flynn was mentioned, who as you said doesn't look anything like one of them lads.

Maybe if Indiana could give examples of what he is talking about, that might help. Anyway, I don't think I can contribute anything useful to this.

[Jinxy]

It goes without saying that a rugby league or rugby union style tailored programme is not suitable or appropriate for GAA players.
You don't need an S&C background to know that.
At county level, I don't see any evidence for that assertion though.
Remember the context here i.e. physical burnout, injuries etc.
A proper S&C programme should reduce these negative effects, not increase them.
If anyone is doing more than Kerry and Dublin in terms of S&C I'd be very surprised and they are the two most skilful teams in the country to my mind
It seemed to me that he was saying there was too much S&C, while using the example of poorly designed programmes to prove his point.
He said, 'That's why it's a complete folly the amount of strength and conditioning training senior  GAA players do. It's trying to attain a "professional" standard - a standard which they will never ever hit. Yet their skills go to pot because of it- they don't enjoy it. And the reasons they don't enjoy it is because every bloody down day is spent in the fecking gym.'
So is the issue with S&C per se, or just with S&C when it is done badly.

[AZOffaly]

But he is an S&C coach himself I thought, so why would he be against S&C? I think he's against what he perceives to be bad S&C programs. Anyway, maybe he'll come back this evening and explain it himself better than I.

[Jinxy]

But he is an S&C coach himself I thought, so why would he be against S&C? I think he's against what he perceives to be bad S&C programs. Anyway, maybe he'll come back this evening and explain it himself better than I.

'That's why it's a complete folly the amount of strength and conditioning training senior GAA players do.'

His words, not mine.
Who is getting it wrong and who is getting it right?

[AZOffaly]

But he is an S&C coach himself I thought, so why would he be against S&C? I think he's against what he perceives to be bad S&C programs. Anyway, maybe he'll come back this evening and explain it himself better than I.

'That's why it's a complete folly the amount of strength and conditioning training senior GAA players do.'

His words, not mine.
Who is getting it wrong and who is getting it right?

The key phrase there is 'The Amount', not that they are doing s&c. But I can't answer your question, as I've said a few times now, so stop asking me

[Jinxy]

No one is doing more S&C than Dublin.
That's pretty obvious.

[AZOffaly]

No one is doing more S&C than Dublin.
That's pretty obvious.

I've no idea if that's true or not. They certainly look fit and strong, but maybe they're just doing it right

[Jinxy]

They're all on the Nutron diet as well.

[AZOffaly]

copyright Tommy Lyons.

[Bingo]

Take Kildare as a recent example at IC level. I was told by a person that I have no doubt would know that when Jason Ryan took over from Kieran McGeeney that he said he planned his training programme to recondition the players from the unrequired bulk that they had put on from the previous S&C regime from what he felt they needed to be at to play GAA.

In my own experience at club level, the dangers of S&C is incorrect technique, lifting too much, inadequate recovery and players lifting too much. Every coach will come in and tell you that it will prevent injury but unless they get time to show and correct every individual player the correct technique this won't happen. Its so specific that in a group session its very hard to manage, it needs to be done 1 on 1.

The club player just seems to head into the Gym and find his own way, print a programme off the internet and follow then.

Talking to a few of our club players over Xmas and they said they where never as fit when we had a local guy who trained then in a circuit style preseason. Was a mix of own body weight excercises (Squats, jumps, lunges, push ups, sit ups etc) and using some light weights (power bags, resistance bands, dumbbells etc). This would all be done outdoor, when running and they got in great shape very quickly.