Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[Donagh]

Maze money could be redirected

Around £70m earmarked for the Maze stadium could be redirected if the plan falls through, the sports minister warned today.
   
     
Edwin Poots said the cash would be devoted to other sporting initiatives if the Executive fails to give the multi-sports venue near Lisburn the go-ahead.

Finance Minister Peter Robinson is considering an outline business case for the ground, which would host football, rugby and GAA fixtures.
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A written response from Mr Poots in the Assembly said: "In the event of a decision not to proceed with the stadium proposal, the Department will seek approval from the Executive to reassign this funding.

"The Department will look to other priorities, initially within sport, and then within its other programmes to utilise this money."

The site for a national stadium in Northern Ireland has divided political opinion.

Sinn Fein has said the party will not support the idea unless it is on the site of the former Maze Prison.

However, some unionists oppose the Maze site because of plans for a conflict transformation centre at the stadium.

The £70m has been set aside during the next three years for the project, Mr Poots told Sinn Fein Lagan Valley MLA Paul Butler.

The business case for the £240m multi-sports stadium at the Maze is currently with Finance Minister Peter Robinson.

[nifan]

Sinn Fein has said the party will not support the idea unless it is on the site of the former Maze Prison.

However, some unionists oppose the Maze site because of plans for a conflict transformation centre at the stadium.

One of the least important points in the argument is yet again made the largest - the conflict transformation centre can surely be done with or without the stadium, and is not really a priority for any pro or anti maze people I personally know.

[Evil Genius]

"Another step forward"? Not if Henry McDonald (today's Guardian) is to be believed....

"A plan to build a £140m national sports stadium on the site of the Maze prison in Northern Ireland is to be abandoned amid opposition from unionists.
The province's finance minister, Peter Robinson, will announce that the project is effectively dead in one of his last acts before succeeding Ian Paisley as first minister at the end of the month, according to unionist sources.
The plan to build a 40,000 all-seater stadium on the site where some of the world's most dangerous paramilitaries were once imprisoned has been one of the most controversial issues to dog the power-sharing executive in recent years.
The project would have transformed part of the 54 hectare (133 acre) site just outside Lisburn, south-west of Belfast, into a shared national stadium for the province's three main sports - football, rugby, and gaelic football.
Sinn Féin - which also wants a permanent museum on the site, commemorating the Maze's role in the history of the Troubles - and the SDLP have been in favour of building the ground. The plan also had the backing of the Gaelic Athletic Association, which promotes gaelic sports.
But the two main unionist parties - with some individual exceptions - were opposed to the project. Some soccer supporters' clubs have also campaigned against it.
Senior sources inside Robinson's Democratic Unionist party said the Maze stadium was "dead in the water". The DUP has refused officially to comment, but one DUP source said: "It will come within the next four weeks, probably before Peter moves from finance to the office of first minister. It will be a popular move within the party, the majority of whom hate the idea of building a national stadium anywhere near a shrine to terrorists.
"The party has also been listening to the majority of Northern Ireland football fans, who are resolutely opposed to moving to the Maze."
The concept of a multi-sports stadium has also been dropped along with the Maze project. Instead, the soccer authorities are looking at a number of projects in Belfast for a 25,000 capacity football-only ground to replace Windsor Park as the home of the national team. Rugby will remain at a refurbished, larger capacity Ravenhill, while the Gaelic Athletic Association will receive millions to improve facilities at Casement Park in West Belfast.
The decision to ditch the Maze project will be seen as a blow to Northern Ireland's sports minister and DUP assembly member Edwin Poots.
Robinson is understood to be planning to offer the site as the new home of the Royal Ulster Agricultural Society's annual show.
A leisure and retail complex will also be proposed at the former prison, including an all-purpose motorcycle racetrack, DUP sources said.
Sinn Féin has suggested that a museum and centre for the study of conflict, similar to the one on Robben Island in South Africa where Nelson Mandela was jailed, be built on the site.
The political squabbling over the Maze cost Northern Ireland a lucrative slice of the London Olympics, according to the Irish Football Association's chief executive, Howard Wells. He said that the delays in building a new stadium meant there was now "not a cat's chance in hell" of having a ground ready to host some of the Olympic football qualifying rounds in 2012."
 

[Donagh]

Even of Gordon Brown does give the land to the Assembly (very doubtful), it will go to OFDFM. What makes you think it will be sold to build you a new stadium? The DUP can do nothing without SF and they have already said you are not getting a stadium in Belfast. Should suit you NI supporting English okay as you won't have to leave your island to watch the games live.

[snatter]

"Another step forward"? Not if Henry McDonald (today's Guardian) is to be believed....

"A plan to build a £140m national sports stadium on the site of the Maze prison in Northern Ireland is to be abandoned amid opposition from unionists.
The province's finance minister, Peter Robinson, will announce that the project is effectively dead in one of his last acts before succeeding Ian Paisley as first minister at the end of the month, according to unionist sources.
The plan to build a 40,000 all-seater stadium on the site where some of the world's most dangerous paramilitaries were once imprisoned has been one of the most controversial issues to dog the power-sharing executive in recent years.
The project would have transformed part of the 54 hectare (133 acre) site just outside Lisburn, south-west of Belfast, into a shared national stadium for the province's three main sports - football, rugby, and gaelic football.
Sinn Féin - which also wants a permanent museum on the site, commemorating the Maze's role in the history of the Troubles - and the SDLP have been in favour of building the ground. The plan also had the backing of the Gaelic Athletic Association, which promotes gaelic sports.
But the two main unionist parties - with some individual exceptions - were opposed to the project. Some soccer supporters' clubs have also campaigned against it.
Senior sources inside Robinson's Democratic Unionist party said the Maze stadium was "dead in the water". The DUP has refused officially to comment, but one DUP source said: "It will come within the next four weeks, probably before Peter moves from finance to the office of first minister. It will be a popular move within the party, the majority of whom hate the idea of building a national stadium anywhere near a shrine to terrorists.
"The party has also been listening to the majority of Northern Ireland football fans, who are resolutely opposed to moving to the Maze."
The concept of a multi-sports stadium has also been dropped along with the Maze project. Instead, the soccer authorities are looking at a number of projects in Belfast for a 25,000 capacity football-only ground to replace Windsor Park as the home of the national team. Rugby will remain at a refurbished, larger capacity Ravenhill, while the Gaelic Athletic Association will receive millions to improve facilities at Casement Park in West Belfast.
The decision to ditch the Maze project will be seen as a blow to Northern Ireland's sports minister and DUP assembly member Edwin Poots.
Robinson is understood to be planning to offer the site as the new home of the Royal Ulster Agricultural Society's annual show.
A leisure and retail complex will also be proposed at the former prison, including an all-purpose motorcycle racetrack, DUP sources said.
Sinn Féin has suggested that a museum and centre for the study of conflict, similar to the one on Robben Island in South Africa where Nelson Mandela was jailed, be built on the site.
The political squabbling over the Maze cost Northern Ireland a lucrative slice of the London Olympics, according to the Irish Football Association's chief executive, Howard Wells. He said that the delays in building a new stadium meant there was now "not a cat's chance in hell" of having a ground ready to host some of the Olympic football qualifying rounds in 2012."
 

It's all just a rehash of the original Ormeau Park proposals.

Unionists are hoping for the following

1. that they can get BCC to gift them a prime site for free.

2. a developer will come onboard to give the veneer that this is strictly all about making money, and not about keeping the fenians out.

3. a soccer and rugby only stadium will be proposed.

4. no consultation or engagement will be made with the GAA, ie they'll be effectively frozen / cold shouldered from the project. No mention will be made of why NI's most atteneded sport should be excluded.

5. It will be falsely spun that somehow, the GAA aren't interested in getting a stadium substantively paid for by the public purse.

6. They may pick a site in hostile east Belfast.

7. thye may pick a site that is just big enough for an orangedome, but sorry old chaps, is just a little too small for gaelic games.

8. they will hope that the GAA is too stupid and too slow moving to realise that any funding they are offered is vastly disproprtionate to the much bigger atetndances that it attracts. 

One phrase you won't hear is that funding for stadia should be in line with need.

9. they hope that Nationalist politicians, especially Befast ones, don't make too much noise.

10. they hope that Alliance councillors in Belfast (especially those who support NI and ulster rugby)  drop their party's  principled objection to building sparate stadia, break ranks, and sell the GAA down the river.

In short, unless the GAA and Nationalist parties (especially the SDLP who haven't muttered a word about this) wake up, this bunch of habitual spongers will get away with it again.

Just like 1983 when they got a shiny new stand for free when we got shag all.

Yes folks, while all 40k of us will still be standing (or at best sitting) in the f**king rain, the chosen few will be sitting on dry seats in a state of the art stadium that is substanially funded by local and Central  Govt.

Time for the GAA (that's top brass and ordinary members) to wake up and either

1. come up with an alternative  stadium proposal of our own - say in Armagh or Dungannon.
Demand a massive free site from either council, or govt to match other stadium.
Demand funding directly in proportion to what soccer gets, ie if they get say 20M for a 20k stadium, we get 40M for a 40k one.

OR

2. play a spoiler card, and insist on coming onboard their stadium development, regardless of where it is.
Out of sheer spite and a dogged insistence on equal treatment, insist that any Belfast stadium that receives any substantive public funding (direct or otherwise) must be built to accommodate gaelic games, and the crowds that attend them.

On what groundd can they possibly say no, when public money is involved and our needs (150k pa projected dwarf soccer's (80k pa) and rugby (40k pa).


GAA top brass seriously need to move fast on this one, and get talking with SF, SDLP and Alliance.
My confidence levels are low, however that they've got the wit to do it.
They were shafted re Lansdowne, Tallaght and Athlone when soccer got much better funding than we've ever got.


Oh and forget about any upgrade to Casement - it simply hasn't got the room to ever be a 40k, minimum 2/3rds seated stadium.

------------------

Oh, and while they're at it, they should kick up a fuss about Derry City looking to tget
1. effectively a free site
2. then looking for 10M out of a further 15M development costs.

Time to ask for the same level of funding, or else time to muscle in, and insist that gaelic games be played there as well.

[Main Street]

"Another step forward"? Not if Henry McDonald (today's Guardian) is to be believed....

With a record like Henry has,  it would be (turkey like) foolish to believe him.
Who can forget Henry´s classic
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/04/northernireland.ireland
'Republic loses northern footballers
Fifa rules that the south must stop recruiting young players from nationalist communities'[/i]

Henry usually writes a load of nonsense from his prejudiced heart, not an article based on facts supported by evidence.

[snatter]

"Another step forward"? Not if Henry McDonald (today's Guardian) is to be believed....

With a record like Henry has,  it would be (turkey like) foolish to believe him.
Who can forget Henry´s classic
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/04/northernireland.ireland
'Republic loses northern footballers
Fifa rules that the south must stop recruiting young players from nationalist communities'[/i]

Henry usually writes a load of nonsense from his prejudiced heart, not an article based on facts supported by evidence.

Main Street,

you're spot on about Henry McDonald.

He's nothing more than a cheerleader for NI fans who want a Belfast stadium.
A bit of a disgrace that his biased crusade gets an airing in a respected liberal paper like the Guardian.

----------------

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/sep/11/northernireland.football

In this article he admits that the Maze is the cheapest option, yet remakably goes on to advocate a Belfast stadium.

He talks about Belfast's "established social and cultural scene to entertain the expected thousands pouring into the stadium for rugby, European ties, Northern Ireland internationals and key club and county GAA clashes."
Yet he doesn't acknowledge the legitimate safety concerns of 40k of the said GAA fans trying to make their way through Belfast.

He voices concerns about travelling fans journeying to the Maze, yet refuses to acknowledge that the vast majority of fans will actually be GAA ones, travelling from South and West Ulster.
For these fans, any journey into an already congested Belfast will add a massive inconvenience.

--------------

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/oct/30/northernireland.football

In this article, he reports on the rants of poor oppressed NI soccer fans, who whinge about how they can't possibly fill a 40k stadium, yet conveniently forgets to report on just why this 40k capacity is needed, ie for the much better attended sport of gaelic football.

A visitor from Mars could read his report and have no idea that it is gaelic football fans who need this capacity because NI fans are almost an irrelevant rump in the economics of any shared stadium.


-------------

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/nov/20/northernireland.football

Similarly, this article is nothing more than cheerleading for NI soccer fans.
No attempt at balancing NI soccer fans opinions with the voices of the more numerous gaa fans who would prefer not to have to travel into Belfast.


-------------

All in all, on this topic at least, Mr McDonald is a grave discredit to an otherwise respected paper.

[his holiness nb]

Its the likes of those biased, one sided articles being allowed into mainstream newspapers which confirms buying newspapers is a waste of time. Its no longer news, its one side of an argument. No balance.

There lots of other mediums out there who give a more balanced fact based view on things. Newspapers cannot be trusted.

[Evil Genius]

Whilst "the usual suspects" are (predictably) rushing to shoot the messenger, McDonald's article appears to be corroborated by Robinson himself by this latest pronouncement on the (decidely pro-Maze) BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7380217.stm
Page last updated at 12:15 GMT, Friday, 2 May 2008 13:15 UK

Maze decision due 'within weeks' 


A decision on whether to build a stadium at the Maze should be taken by the end of this month, according to Finance Minister Peter Robinson.

Mr Robinson said that even if the stadium did not go ahead, something would be built on the site.

He said he had promised his executive colleagues he would present his appraisal within three weeks.

He also said that if the Maze stadium was not given the go-ahead, stadia across NI would be improved.

"I don't think it is sufficient to say that if the Maze was not to proceed that we would walk away and do nothing with it," he said.

"No more is it sensible to say that if the Maze was not to go ahead that we would do nothing with football, rugby and GAA facilities elsewhere."

The site for a national stadium in Northern Ireland has divided political opinion.

Sinn Féin has said the party will not support the idea unless it is on the site of the former Maze Prison.

However, some unionists oppose the Maze site because of plans for a conflict transformation centre at the stadium.

The Gaelic Athletic Association, Irish Football Association and Ulster Rugby have all confirmed they would play games at the Maze venue.

[snatter]

Its the likes of those biased, one sided articles being allowed into mainstream newspapers which confirms buying newspapers is a waste of time. Its no longer news, its one side of an argument. No balance.

There lots of other mediums out there who give a more balanced fact based view on things. Newspapers cannot be trusted.

Yeah, but the problem with articles like Mc Donalds is that the less clued-in accept them without twigging what the underlying motive is about.

In this stadium charade, the goal from the very outset (way back in the early 1990's) was to get a new stadium for soccer and rugby only.

We had Don somebody or other from the NI sports council going to Westminster, looking for funding for a new stadium (now that Wales had theirs).

He was rebuffed by the Govt when it was clear that the GAA hadn't even been consulted.
His delegation came out with some unfounded  dribble along the lines that GAA is a county based sport, and they would be more interested in upgrading county grounds, would have no need for a higher quality stadium, pitch sizes were different, etc, etc.
But when he was asked if he had asked them, he was forced to admit he hadn't.

The Govt told him it was politically unacceptable to exclude gaelic games as it was symbolically representative of the exclusion of the nationalist community.
They were forced to engage with the GAA, only to find that we were actually up for a free stadium (quel surprise!).

Ever since then, there has been concerted canvassing to try and scupper the shared stadium and get a new improved Windsor MKII instead, with no quid pro quo funding of GAA's greater needs.
If the GAA / SF / SDLP / Alliance don't stop this, they'll get their way.

[snatter]

Whilst "the usual suspects" are (predictably) rushing to shoot the messenger, McDonald's article appears to be corroborated by Robinson himself by this latest pronouncement on the (decidely pro-Maze) BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7380217.stm
Page last updated at 12:15 GMT, Friday, 2 May 2008 13:15 UK

Maze decision due 'within weeks' 


A decision on whether to build a stadium at the Maze should be taken by the end of this month, according to Finance Minister Peter Robinson.

Mr Robinson said that even if the stadium did not go ahead, something would be built on the site.

He said he had promised his executive colleagues he would present his appraisal within three weeks.

He also said that if the Maze stadium was not given the go-ahead, stadia across NI would be improved.

"I don't think it is sufficient to say that if the Maze was not to proceed that we would walk away and do nothing with it," he said.

"No more is it sensible to say that if the Maze was not to go ahead that we would do nothing with football, rugby and GAA facilities elsewhere."

The site for a national stadium in Northern Ireland has divided political opinion.

Sinn Féin has said the party will not support the idea unless it is on the site of the former Maze Prison.

However, some unionists oppose the Maze site because of plans for a conflict transformation centre at the stadium.

The Gaelic Athletic Association, Irish Football Association and Ulster Rugby have all confirmed they would play games at the Maze venue.

Nobody's doubting that the DUP will try and get an Orangedome built instead of building a stadium that accommodates the much better attended sport of gaelic football.

The big square they have yet to circle is how they can do this without having to pick up the tab for the GAA building a new stadium of adequate capacity for themselves.

[his holiness nb]

Whilst "the usual suspects" are (predictably) rushing to shoot the messenger

Usual suspects indeed 

I couldnt give a f**k about the stadium, was just commentating on the poor and unbalanced reporting in todays papers. This is a prime example.

[snatter]

Whilst "the usual suspects" are (predictably) rushing to shoot the messenger

Usual suspects indeed 

I couldnt give a f**k about the stadium, was just commentating on the poor and unbalanced reporting in todays papers. This is a prime example.

Yeah, but would you give a fcuk about the OWC crowd getting a free stadium while our crowds, twice as big, are still getting soaked in some dump like Clones.

[Donagh]

Yeah, but the problem with articles like Mc Donalds is that the less clued-in accept them without twigging what the underlying motive is about.

In this stadium charade, the goal from the very outset (way back in the early 1990's) was to get a new stadium for soccer and rugby only.

We had Don somebody or other from the NI sports council going to Westminster, looking for funding for a new stadium (now that Wales had theirs).

He was rebuffed by the Govt when it was clear that the GAA hadn't even been consulted.
His delegation came out with some unfounded  dribble along the lines that GAA is a county based sport, and they would be more interested in upgrading county grounds, would have no need for a higher quality stadium, pitch sizes were different, etc, etc.
But when he was asked if he had asked them, he was forced to admit he hadn't.

The Govt told him it was politically unacceptable to exclude gaelic games as it was symbolically representative of the exclusion of the nationalist community.
They were forced to engage with the GAA, only to find that we were actually up for a free stadium (quel surprise!).

Ever since then, there has been concerted canvassing to try and scupper the shared stadium and get a new improved Windsor MKII instead, with no quid pro quo funding of GAA's greater needs.
If the GAA / SF / SDLP / Alliance don't stop this, they'll get their way.

That would be Don Allen OBE. I knew the family very well at one time. 

[Donagh]

Whilst "the usual suspects" are (predictably) rushing to shoot the messenger, McDonald's article appears to be corroborated by Robinson himself by this latest pronouncement on the (decidely pro-Maze) BBC:

Where is it "corroborated"? I think it's obvious there that Robinson knows he can't do anything. Nowhere does it say that anything will happen to the Maze/Long Kesh site because he knows that (i) the Assembly does not own the site and (ii) he needs SF support to do anything with the site.

He says existing stadiums will be improved but does not mention to what extent or where the money comes from because of (i) the Assembly does not own the site and (ii) he needs SF support to do anything with the site. Any improvements will have to come from the existing budget, which is all accounted for in the foreseeable future.

Time to hit the road lads.