Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[Evil Genius]

Gerry Kelly on the radio this morning said it's Long Kesh or nothing. About time that bunch of pansies stood up for themselves.

Just as well he doesn't make decisions on sports funding then, isn't it.

He said they would use their veto to block any other stadium other that that originally agreed for Long Kesh.

There is every chance that this is just another example of SF doing what they do rather well i.e. politics. Frankly, other than locals like Paul Butler, SF have no particular interest in a sports stadium per se, esp a "National NI Stadium" sited in a predominantly Unionist area and serving rugby and football (as well as GAA). However, they do have a great interest in the Long Kesh site (for obvious reasons) and so are keen on the ICTC/Museum etc
Conversely, the DUP have generally never had much interest in sport and for political reasons, have now gone rather "cold" on the Maze Stadium proposal, despite the vested interest of Poots and Donaldson.
Therefore, I wouldn't be in the least surprised if SF and the DUP cobbled together a plan whereby SF would drop their "demand" for a Stadium at the Maze, in return for the DUP not making difficulties over the ICTC/Museum. That way (possibly in conjunction with BCC?) the DUP could satisfy the soccer/rugby element amongst their support with a Belfast Stadium (revamp Windsor or build anew), and SF get to placate their GAA constituency by compensatory funding to the GAA. Meanwhile, we the taxpayers all benefit by the money saved, the Exchequer is happy and the three codes get what they want.
It's called local politics - what we've actually been lacking in this part of the world for decades - and as yesterdays "horsetrading" over Council Reform (SF = 7, DUP = 15, Result - 11), the local parties have picked up on it remarkably quickly.

Or have you not been reading your instructions from Connolly House recently?  

[Evil Genius]

First line of my last post

The nature of devolved government is that a consensus must be reached when large sums of public money are involved....

And as the Irish News Editorial from two days ago pointed out, what concensus there was from the three codes over the Maze Stadium is ebbing away. That's the reality of the situation.

[his holiness nb]

Or have you not been reading your instructions from Connolly House recently?  

Gets funnier every time EG 

[Donagh]

Gerry Kelly on the radio this morning said it's Long Kesh or nothing. About time that bunch of pansies stood up for themselves.

Just as well he doesn't make decisions on sports funding then, isn't it.

He said they would use their veto to block any other stadium other that that originally agreed for Long Kesh.

There is every chance that this is just another example of SF doing what they do rather well i.e. politics. Frankly, other than locals like Paul Butler, SF have no particular interest in a sports stadium per se, esp a "National NI Stadium" sited in a predominantly Unionist area and serving rugby and football (as well as GAA). However, they do have a great interest in the Long Kesh site (for obvious reasons) and so are keen on the ICTC/Museum etc
Conversely, the DUP have generally never had much interest in sport and for political reasons, have now gone rather "cold" on the Maze Stadium proposal, despite the vested interest of Poots and Donaldson.
Therefore, I wouldn't be in the least surprised if SF and the DUP cobbled together a plan whereby SF would drop their "demand" for a Stadium at the Maze, in return for the DUP not making difficulties over the ICTC/Museum. That way (possibly in conjunction with BCC?) the DUP could satisfy the soccer/rugby element amongst their support with a Belfast Stadium (revamp Windsor or build anew), and SF get to placate their GAA constituency by compensatory funding to the GAA. Meanwhile, we the taxpayers all benefit by the money saved, the Exchequer is happy and the three codes get what they want.
It's called local politics - what we've actually been lacking in this part of the world for decades - and as yesterdays "horsetrading" over Council Reform (SF = 7, DUP = 15, Result - 11), the local parties have picked up on it remarkably quickly.

Or have you not been reading your instructions from Connolly House recently? 

It's quite possible that they might do a deal but I don't think they will because unlike the RPA it's not merely a political issue but one that has a wider significance in terms of symbolism and equality. It's quite clear to nationalists that the DUP want to squirm away with having anything to do with the GAA and their rebel games on the Sabbath. The Shinners have been waiting for their chance to stand up to DUP bigotry and I reckon this is where they are going to make it i.e. by showing them that the old days are gone, that if they want anything done they will have to respect the nationalist culture in both their words and actions. Let's not forget that the three sporting bodies have expressed a wiliness to share the Long Kesh site, the DUP are the only players looking to prevent that.

[Evil Genius]

2. The nationalist electorate are crying out for SF to stand up to the DUP after they blocked the ILA "out of spite"

And how are SF responding? Oh yes, by preparing to accommodate, not "stand up to", Peter Robinson when he steps into Big Ian's shoes.

Or didn't you notice yesterday's compromise over Local Government reform?  

I wouldn't dare to guess the prevailing sentiment in the Nationalist Community, but if forced to make a guess, I'd say they are becomning increasingly concerned with real political issues, like housing, water rates, taxes, mortgage rates, Council services, hospitals, schools, jobs and a thousand other day-to-day concerns, rather than "gesture" politics like the ILA.

In this context, whilsts sport, culture and the arts are important, they don't pay the rent at the end of the month. Which may explain explain, for instance, the lack of enthusiasm, even interest, identified by the Irish News in its recent Editorial over the whole Maze Stadium debate?

P.S. Out of interest, what language were the Nationalist people "crying out" in over the ILA? One which we all might understand?  

[Evil Genius]

Only problem ....how will you ever afford to buy a Belfast site big enough

I have already addressed this point in one of my previous posts. You know, the one where I was forced to point out (again) that the Maze site is not, in fact "free"? That is, the one where it might be possible to use one or more existing sports sites, of municipal or public land which could only get permission for leisure use, not development?

And in any case, even if we are starting from the basis of a Maze site worth £126m, plus the likely saving on a £114m Bill for Transport/Infrastructure etc which wouldn't be needed for Belfast, we've actually got the best part of £200m to play with if we scrap the Maze and still save money. And as other comparable cities in the UK (Swansea, Hull, Milton Keynes etc) have demonstrated, less than £200m should be more than adequate.

(and small enough to keep the GAA out, but that's an aside)

By vetoing the other two sports over any Belfast site, the GAA is doing a very good job of keeping itself  out. The GAA doesn't want a new stadium in Belfast. Fine. Since the other two do, why not just give the GAA their fair share of the money and let them spend it wherever they like? Or after years of cpomplaing about being denied Government funding, is the GAA actually now likely not to want it? 

Its almost guaranteed that SF/SDLP/Alliance will support a genuine cross-community venture a-la-Maze, so how high do you rate your chances of them giving you a site?

As has been increasingly been demonstrated over much more important and contentious issues than sport, the local parties are quite capable of trading their various demands in one area for concessions in another. Don't be too surprised if the Maze turns out to be another such area, and maybe quicker than you think. After all, it's less than a year since Big Ian* vetoed the use of Ormeau Park, on the basis that he didn't want greyhound racing near his Martyrs Memorial Church.


* - Whatever happened to him, I wonder? 

[snatter]

First line of my last post

The nature of devolved government is that a consensus must be reached when large sums of public money are involved....

And as the Irish News Editorial from two days ago pointed out, what concensus there was from the three codes over the Maze Stadium is ebbing away. That's the reality of the situation.

As Sammy kindly corrected me yesterday, the IN editiorial did nothing of the sort.
It merely claimed that support from GAA and rugby fans was apathetic at best.

Well, just hours laterm the GAA emphatically re-endorsed the Maze:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/duffy-afraid--grant-row-could--provoke-rifts-1314984.html

Meanwhile, GAA president Nickey Brennan has said he is still very much behind the notion of building a stadium on the site of the old Maze prison.

"We made out position clear on it and we embraced the idea when it came first," he said. "But it's up to the politicians now."

I haven't detected any decrease in support from rugby or soccer bodies either.

Michael Reid, Ulster Rugby CEO, was recently interviewed (5th February), giving the politicians a proverbial kick upo the arse, and telling them to get on with it:

http://www.ulsterrugby.ie/11_6448.php

Now that the Maze is the only option, there is no doubt that these are state-of-the-art facilities, and we got a lot of changes that we asked for. The design is a three tier design. We have got the capacity of the bottom bowl of the stadium reduced from 25000 to 18000; we got the Box levels that were up in Levels 2 & 3, brought down to Level 1, so with a crowd of 18000, we could have that self contained on one level for rugby, and we also got a lot of technical changes made that we wanted. We have also negotiated a substantial decrease in rent. Only a quarter of the crowd at Ravenhill sit and if you charge the same price for a seat here, to sit at the Maze, we could make £75-80k more per match, simply because everyone would be seated. Even with rent which would be about £30k per match, we would still be £40- 50k better off. That is at today's prices in about 4 years time, so there is no need for astronomical price increases.

Is that putting you in a difficult position to consider it? If something better came up in Belfast are you already committed to the Maze?

We are committed to the Maze, because it is the only thing that's there. The difficulty here for all of us is we are in a country where we had politicians who when they were effectively in opposition, threw stones. Now they are in power, they have to show some leadership here, and I believe it is unfair on Sport to be put in a position where we have to decide. There is one option for us, which is the Maze.

[Donagh]

And how are SF responding?

Or didn't you notice yesterday's compromise over Local Government reform?


Which may explain explain, for instance, the lack of enthusiasm, even interest, identified by the Irish News in its recent Editorial over the whole Maze Stadium debate?

P.S. Out of interest, what language were the Nationalist people "crying out" in over the ILA? One which we all might understand? 

See my previous post.

[Main Street]

As outlined by PWC, it is estimated that the construction of the stadium will cost £126m. This is to be completed by Developers, in return for being allowed to develop the site for houses, retail, industry etc. (In addition, the Government will spend £114m on providing transport and infrastructure support, giving a total stadium cost of £240m.)
http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=87616&pt=n

As we all know, Developers are not Charities. Therefore, they are not going to spend £126m building a stadium unless they believe that the associated development rights are worth at least  that amount - otherwise they could not hope to make a profit.

The £126m pays for infrastructure to a vast complex as well as a stadium. I'd imagine there is an exchequer and community return from all this activity.

When people say free they mean it´s not going to cost the sports bodies valuable cash.
For Lansdowne road on a basic 55k capacity no one batted an eyelid about the Gov providing Eur 190m.
So I´d assume that from an exchequer at least ten times larger, a similar sum would hardly be noticed.

Usually sporting bodies are crying out for funds. Sporting bodies and fans would be fighting mad to get the sort of one off promise from the Exchequer for a stadium with only a few strings attached.
That's the main reason why I can't take the OWC objections too serious, too quick not to be grateful and just say thank you very much, too quick to cry terrorist shrine, too quick to dismiss the positives and accentuate the negatives.
It's too big, its too far, there's no effin road, no watering holes.  
It's no done deal yet that the DUP will just say no to the Maze.

[snatter]

Only problem ....how will you ever afford to buy a Belfast site big enough

I have already addressed this point in one of my previous posts. You know, the one where I was forced to point out (again) that the Maze site is not, in fact "free"? That is, the one where it might be possible to use one or more existing sports sites, of municipal or public land which could only get permission for leisure use, not development?

And in any case, even if we are starting from the basis of a Maze site worth £126m, plus the likely saving on a £114m Bill for Transport/Infrastructure etc which wouldn't be needed for Belfast, we've actually got the best part of £200m to play with if we scrap the Maze and still save money. And as other comparable cities in the UK (Swansea, Hull, Milton Keynes etc) have demonstrated, less than £200m should be more than adequate.

EG,

by your rationale, no site could ever be regarded as free, becasue we could get planning permission to do whatever we like with it, and then flog it off for housing.
Its a nonsensical argument.

Current recreational zoning is no barrier to developing land.
It can be lifted at a stroke of a pen if its perceived as being for the greater good, as many south Belfast rugby clubs will happily tell you when they cashed in and moved elsewhere.
I believe many GAA units are currently considering selling up for supermarkets/housing and moving to cheaper sites as well.

[snatter]

(and small enough to keep the GAA out, but that's an aside)

By vetoing the other two sports over any Belfast site, the GAA is doing a very good job of keeping itself  out. The GAA doesn't want a new stadium in Belfast. Fine. Since the other two do, why not just give the GAA their fair share of the money and let them spend it wherever they like? Or after years of cpomplaing about being denied Government funding, is the GAA actually now likely not to want it? 

This is a complete lie - there is no proof that GAA has veto'ed Belfast.
It merely preferred the Maze.

Here, I've helpfully posted the GAA's Ulster Secretary's comments below.

Comments that, I should add, went shamefully unreported in the BBC, Belfast Telegraph, Newsletter.
Maybe that's why you're hopelessly mis-informed.
Or maybe you just can't handle the truth.

Notice that the bbc.co.uk/ni website has not published any comments from the Ulster Council relating to their statement. Either an oversight on behalf of the bbc or poor pr work from the Ulster Council. In any case in todays paper we can read what the position of the Ulster Council is and it is in stark contrast to the information we heard yesterday:

Ulster did not say no to Belfast stadia plans 
GAA 
By Paddy Heaney 

Ulster Council secretary Danny Murphy has refuted claims that the GAA has refused to agree to a multi-sports stadium being built in Belfast.

Northern Ireland Sports Minister Edwin Poots was reported as telling a meeting of the Assembly's culture comittee that the GAA ruled out proposed stadia both on Belfast's north foreshore and in the Titanic Quarter.

Gaelic games, soccer and rugby would be played at any future venue and plans have been drawn up for a 35,000-capacity stadium at the Maze site, outside Lisburn.

However, Ulster secretary Murphy has strongly denied the suggestion that the northern GAA body had taken a stance against a stadium in Belfast.

He insisted that the Ulster Council had simply expressed its preference for the Maze site without ever taking a negative position on a city-based stadium. Murphy also noted that the Ulster Council had never been asked to consider the Titanic Quarter site.

Murphy said: "The Ulster GAA considered the two sites which were put forward to us, one on the northern foreshore, and the other one was the Maze/Long Kesh site.

"As far as we were concerned, the Titanic Quarter was eliminated by the time it got to the stage where we were involved.

"We chose the Maze/Long Kesh site because we believe it represented the best location.

"We did not take a decision against a Belfast site. We took a pro-active view on behalf of the Council's need for a stadium and its location.''

When asked to explain why the Ulster Council preferred the former prison site, Murphy cited finance and accessibility for the entire province as key reasons.

"When the matter was put to us, the economic argument had already reduced the field to two. The economic argument favoured the Maze/Long Kesh site as opposed to the northern foreshore," said Murphy.

"Our preference would be to take in the jurisdiction of the province of Ulster.

"We cover the nine counties of Ulster and teams from all across it. If the stadium was going to meet a useful purpose it had to be accessible for the all of the teams that play in our jurisdiction.

"When we looked at the two sites our preferred option was for the Maze,'' he added.

When asked if he was annoyed that the DUP politician had appeared to misrepresent the Ulster Council's position on the issue, Murphy said: "I don't have a transcript of what he was supposed to have said so I can't comment.

"All I can say is that we expressed our preference from the two sites which were put before us at the time.''

Poots made the comments yesterday during a meeting of the Assembly's culture committee, which was called during the summer recess in order to address the controversial issue.

During the meeting Poots stated that the Irish Football Association was open to various sites, but its chief executive, Howard Wells, had a personal preference for the Maze.

Poots told the committee that rugby's Ulster Branch favoured a Belfast site – but that the GAA was opposed to a stadium in the city.

Could one of our OWC posters perhaps let the guys over on OWC know the true position of the Ulster Council on this matter!!

Interesting that BBC NI have had no problems reporting Wells "clarification" of his position.

Even if the GAA has been typically poor on the PR front, surely somebody in the BBC NI sports section must read the IN?
Or maybe not, and thats the problem with their lobsided reporting.

The real story here should be that the two sports bodies chiefs have categorically denied the ministers claims. The bbc should be pressurising poots to explain the basis and motivation for his statement.

[Evil Genius]

It's quite possible that they might do a deal but I don't think they will because unlike the RPA it's not merely a political issue but one that has a wider significance in terms of symbolism and equality. It's quite clear to nationalists that the DUP want to squirm away with having anything to do with the GAA and their rebel games on the Sabbath. The Shinners have been waiting for their chance to stand up to DUP bigotry and I reckon this is where they are going to make it i.e. by showing them that the old days are gone, that if they want anything done they will have to respect the nationalist culture in both their words and actions. Let's not forget that the three sporting bodies have expressed a wiliness to share the Long Kesh site, the DUP are the only players looking to prevent that.

When it comes to it, we are talking about £240m+ of public money being spent on a venue that the GAA will use for a maximum of eight days per year.

After years of contesting elections, SF have developed a very acute ability to count, so I personally would be surprised if they will allow the stadium to take priority over their voters' concerns during the remaining 357 days of the year. After all, the most important statemant on this whole issue came from Wee Marty, when he said "No ICTC/Museum = No Stadium". That's a hell of a way short of saying their MUST be a stadium.

In fact, the Stadium might just provide a very convenient "figleaf" for Peter Robinson, when he has to explain why he isn't blocking SF'd plans for the H Blocks etc: "OK, they've got their Memorial and ICTC etc, but at least I prevented them from getting 'their' Stadium out there, as well"

Politics, eh? Don't Ya Just Love it...

[Evil Genius]

Or have you not been reading your instructions from Connolly House recently?  

Gets funnier every time EG 

And your eagerness to step in and kiss the arse of Donagh, Fearon etc, when they're* quite capable of defending themselves, becomes ever more predictable.

As is your unwillingness to address the substance of my post: too hard for you, is it? Or do you just prefer to snipe from the sidelines, then run away?



* - Well Donagh, anyhow.

[thejuice]

While reading through another forum, brought up an interesting angle on all this.....

More seriously, apart from the two departed Paisleys, guess who else wasn't at the DUP's recent Lisbon conference of the long knives - Poots. Now the MPs are all home, DUP sources start leaking the story about the party shelving the Maze... while Poots is in America.

Can anyone else see a pattern emerging here? How long has Junior's last ally got now?

Poots will now either do as he's told, or will be replaced as Sports Minister. Robinson and Dodds will call the shots, and they want a stadium in Belfast, their base.

What would be really interesting to know is how Lagan Valley MP and MLA Jeffrey Donaldson managed to end up as the new Junior Minister. Isn't the Maze in his constituency?

Surely he couldn't have shafted his fellow Lisburn DUP colleague and turned his back on plans for a prestigious, if slightly tainted, stadium in his own constituency for a measly junior cabinet role? But then, the junior minister's position is generally regarded as the green room for potential policing or justice ministers...

Oh, this is gonna be good.
Posted by ******** on Mar 10, 2008 @ 04:16 AM


I would be amazed if Jeffrey Donaldson "shafted" anybody politically.

Where's the track record for him doing anything like that.

I'm not fan of the DUP, but this project has been, is and would always be rotten to the core, and if it's finally being binned as a result of DUP posturing, so be it.
Posted by ********** on Mar 10, 2008 @ 09:14 AM


Surely he couldn't have shafted his fellow Lisburn DUP colleague and turned his back on plans for a prestigious, if slightly tainted, stadium in his own constituency for a measly junior cabinet role?

Check back over the period Poots been "in office", anytime there's been a major development Jeffrey has been conspicuous in his absence.

If one were one for the conspiracy theories, you'd say that Poots getting the "Culture" job was a monumental stitch up all along; a job he was patently unqualified for that would deal with all those things the DUP voter base just love: the GAA, gays, the Irish language. The Maze fiasco has just been the very tasty icing on the cake; putting Poots "in charge" of choosing the "National" Stadium has had exactly the result expected and desired- the man's days are numbered.

Posted by *********on Mar 10, 2008 @ 11:52 AM

[his holiness nb]

And your eagerness to step in and kiss the arse of Donagh, Fearon etc, when they're* quite capable of defending themselves, becomes ever more predictable.

As is your unwillingness to address the substance of my post: too hard for you, is it? Or do you just prefer to snipe from the sidelines, then run away?



* - Well Donagh, anyhow.

I dont see how by slagging your tired old cliches I am kissing Donaghs arse. It was directed at you, not Donagh, and not in defence of Donagh.

As as for the Tony comments, its been quite a while since I had any interaction with Tony, and if I'm not mistaken I was giving out to him then, but dont let that get in the way of your bitching.

As for the substance being too hard (another childish snipe, speaking of snipes) no its not, its quite interesting reading. I wont comment too much however as I have already given my views on this topic, and unlike some, dont see the point in repeating my points over and over.