Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[snatter]

1. A stadium at DB would not be cross community

1) I never mentioned DB
2) Even if it was at DB it would still be cross-community as both football and rugby are cross-community
3) Even if neither of those were true, the IFA can still aplly for funding in the normal way and be accepted or rejected.

2. The nationalist electorate are crying out for SF to stand up to the DUP after they blocked the ILA "out of spite" and the insulting comments about the GAA made by Dodds and Morrow earlier in the week. 

Sorry but I can't see what some petty squabble between the DUP and SF has to do with sport in NI.

Sammy,

here's the reality of what's need for genuine cross community acceptance:

  from Belfast Telegraph.........
The nature of devolved government is that a consensus must be reached when large sums of public money are involved....

Another round of talks would have to begin if there was any change, and the prospect of the GAA agreeing to an east Belfast site, as rumoured, must be slim. Each sport - and each voting bloc in the executive - has a veto on any decision.

You glibly claim that soccer is cross-community, and on that basis any stadium it builds should be regarded as a cross-community one.

I would say that for a new stadium to be genuinely cross community, it needs
1. the support of unionists and nationalists.
2. to cater for all major field sports played in both communities, ie gaelic fotball, soccer and rugby.
3. to be located on a site acceptable to both communities.

To exclude one sport, especially the most attended one, with the economic benefits its much larger fan base delivers, removes any pretence of your soccer/rugby stadium being cross community.

Any stadium that excludes Northern Ireland's most attended sport will fail miserably to reflect the community breakdown here, and will be regarded as nothing more than an OrangeDome.

As I see it, the only way you can ensure that you don't have a gaelic footballer about the place is by going it alone and keeping the cost down to such a level that you need at best, only minimal grant aid.
Unless you are somehow gifted a free site, that won't happen.

If yoiu are relying on Belfast City Council to gift you guys a free site so that you don't have to share with the GAA, then forget it.

Opinions have hardened, now that its perfectly clear that you want to go down your separatist route, to keep the GAA out at all costs.
No self-respecting nationalist councillor is going to hand over public land when the underlying goal is build a stadium whose location and design are carefully chosen to exclude the best atteneded sport in Northern Ireland.

I love how your posts don't even consider that if somehow, a Belfast site was given handeed over by BCC, that a precondition wouldn't exist that any site would have to include galeic games.

After all, with 150k per year projected GAA fans, versus a paltry 80k soccer fans, the economic argumnets alone would dictate that having the GAA on board is a must for any city.

The shinners, SDLP and I assume the Alliance party will never allow this essentially sectarian stadium to go ahead, not when all three sports have agreed to the Maze, a site that is acceptable to both communities, in a stadium that caters for all three sports.

For once, there is a glimmer of sense in what you say about moving above petty political squabbles.

After all if
the GAA, the IRFU and the IFA can all agree on location and stadium design, and the UK govt is willing to fund it, why should petty political squabbles get in the way?

Roll on and build what the three sports bodies want.

[Donagh]

3) Even if neither of those were true, the IFA can still aplly for funding in the normal way and be accepted or rejected.

No Sammy, you haven't got this power sharing thing yet have you? SF can block funding to the IFA from now until Gerry gets his united Ireland and there isn't anything anyone can do about it. Of course if they want to raise their own money to build a stadium that's entirely up to them.

[SammyG]

Brilliant rant snatter but you seem to have missed 2 important points

1) I have no problem sharing a stadium with anybody (in fact as you point out the more usage the better value it becomes)
2) The Maze business case doesn't add up, so it's dead and we now have to look at alternatives. Those alternatives could be a multi-sports stadium somewhere else (Belfast would be my prferred option obviously), a football only stadium (if it passes the business case), upgrade existing stadia or even just divvy the money up and let the various sports sort themselves out. Once all of these options have been properly assesed then we can make a decision and move forward.

[SammyG]

3) Even if neither of those were true, the IFA can still aplly for funding in the normal way and be accepted or rejected.

No Sammy, you haven't got this power sharing thing yet have you? SF can block funding to the IFA from now until Gerry gets his united Ireland and there isn't anything anyone can do about it. Of course if they want to raise their own money to build a stadium that's entirely up to them.

Are you saying that sports council and lottery funding (the main sources of sports funding) are now controlled by the Assembly? And if you are, can you tell me when this was announced, as it's the first I've heard of it.

[snatter]

3) Even if neither of those were true, the IFA can still aplly for funding in the normal way and be accepted or rejected.

No Sammy, you haven't got this power sharing thing yet have you? SF can block funding to the IFA from now until Gerry gets his united Ireland and there isn't anything anyone can do about it. Of course if they want to raise their own money to build a stadium that's entirely up to them.

Are you saying that sports council and lottery funding (the main sources of sports funding) are now controlled by the Assembly? And if you are, can you tell me when this was announced, as it's the first I've heard of it.

First line of my last post (thanks for the compliments btw):

The nature of devolved government is that a consensus must be reached when large sums of public money are involved....

Only way you guys can circumvent this veto is to go it alone and keep costs down.

Only problem ....how will you ever afford to buy a Belfast site big enough (and small enough to keep the GAA out, but that's an aside)?

Its almost guaranteed that SF/SDLP/Alliance will support a genuine cross-community venture a-la-Maze, so how high do you rate your chances of them giving you a site?

Assuming of course, that you actually find one?

[Donagh]

Are you saying that sports council and lottery funding (the main sources of sports funding) are now controlled by the Assembly? And if you are, can you tell me when this was announced, as it's the first I've heard of it.

I've never know the lottery to provide 100% funding for anything and they certainly wouldn't make an exception for the incompetents in the IFA. A new stadium would be way out of the sports council's league and besides they get a large part of their funding from DCAL. Face it Sammy you ain't getting a stadium anywhere else, though when FIFA shuts Windsor down you'll be able to save a few pound on the air fares as the mountain will be coming to Mohammad, as they might say.

[SammyG]

Just seen Gerry's statement 

But Gerry Kelly of Sinn Fein said his party would "not accept a stadium being built on any other site".

The Gaelic Athletic Association, Irish Football Association and Ulster Rugby have confirmed they would play games at the Maze venue.

The site is just outside Lisburn in County Antrim.

Mr Kelly, who was a former IRA prisoner in the Maze, said the conflict transformation centre was designed to help other people around the world learn from the peace process.

"Regenerating this site has the potential to create up to 10,000 new jobs - many of which would be at the higher value end of the scale - and to lever up to £1bn investment," he said.

Discussions about the Long Kesh or Maze site have gone on for nearly 10 years.

Mr Kelly believes that in order to take advantage of opportunities at the 2012 Olympics "to lever further investment and employment, the time to fully implement the Long Kesh masterplan is now."

Funniest thing I've read in years. 10,000 jobs  , 2012 Olympics  £1bn investment  Fcuk me he makes Poots sound like a sensible politician.

[Donagh]

Funniest thing I've read in years. 10,000 jobs  , 2012 Olympics  £1bn investment  Fcuk me he makes Poots sound like a sensible politician.

And he's the man that will decide whether you get a new stadium or not. 

[snatter]

Brilliant rant snatter but you seem to have missed 2 important points

1) I have no problem sharing a stadium with anybody (in fact as you point out the more usage the better value it becomes)
2) The Maze business case doesn't add up, so it's dead and we now have to look at alternatives. Those alternatives could be a multi-sports stadium somewhere else (Belfast would be my prferred option obviously), a football only stadium (if it passes the business case), upgrade existing stadia or even just divvy the money up and let the various sports sort themselves out. Once all of these options have been properly assesed then we can make a decision and move forward.

SammyG,

you have consistently advocated what you call a "football-only stadium", and we would call a soccer/rugby only stadium.

we are talking about a football only stadium and football is now and always has been totally cross-community.

Why would you even consider excluding gaelic games?
Do you not get the point that by excluding NI's best attended sport, any such stadium

• fails any sesnible definition of a cross community stadium.
• fails to reap the economic benefits of attracting practically twice the number of fans soccer would bring.

[SammyG]

SammyG,

you have consistently advocated what you call a "football-only stadium", and we would call a soccer/rugby only stadium.

we are talking about a football only stadium and football is now and always has been totally cross-community.

I think you're having a bit of difficulty reading (again). That quote was in reply to a specific question. My preferred option is now and always has been a multi-sports facility. However if that isn't available then, of course, I'll take a football only or football/rugby or footballl/gaelic or football/greyhounds or whatever combination works best.

Why would you even consider excluding gaelic games?

I've never suggested excluding anybody. If however the GAA decide not to come on-board, then that's hardly my fault (or the IFA's).

Do you not get the point that by excluding NI's best attended sport, any such stadium

See previous answer

• fails any sesnible definition of a cross community stadium.

Nonsense, if one sport decides to exclude itself, while other cross-community sports continue, then it is a cross-community facility.

• fails to reap the economic benefits of attracting practically twice the number of fans soccer would bring.

There are no economic benefits from the Maze, that's why it has failed. The economic benfits of any other stadium will be measured on their on merits.

[thejuice]

There isnt much mention of the Titanic Quarter. Whats wrong with that location, could someone give me an address to I can look at it on Googlemaps.

[SammyG]

There isnt much mention of the Titanic Quarter. Whats wrong with that location, could someone give me an address to I can look at it on Googlemaps.

TQ would be most peoples preferred option but was ruled out by the Maze advisory panel, early on, because the GAA vetoed any Belfast site. Now that the Maze plans are dead, TQ should definitely be one of the sites that is looked at and analysed.

p.s. I haven't a clue what the google maps ref is.

[Donagh]

There isnt much mention of the Titanic Quarter. Whats wrong with that location, could someone give me an address to I can look at it on Googlemaps.

Someone else already has plans for the area:

http://www.titanic-quarter.com/

Queen's island:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Queen's+Island+belfast&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wl

[Donagh]

There isnt much mention of the Titanic Quarter. Whats wrong with that location, could someone give me an address to I can look at it on Googlemaps.

TQ would be most peoples preferred option but was ruled out by the Maze advisory panel, early on, because the GAA vetoed any Belfast site. Now that the Maze plans are dead, TQ should definitely be one of the sites that is looked at and analysed.

£1 million per acre even if the owner was willing to sell. Where would the IFA get that kind of money? Not to mention the infrastructure improvements.    Dream on Sammy...

[SammyG]

There isnt much mention of the Titanic Quarter. Whats wrong with that location, could someone give me an address to I can look at it on Googlemaps.

Someone else already has plans for the area:

http://www.titanic-quarter.com/

Still plenty of room for a stadium, as they're only using a percentage of the site and they're struggling to sell/lease the flats and offices that are already agreed. The major factor will be cost rather than space availability. I'd imagine they'd want to get the arm in, which may make a stadium unworkable.

Edit: Posted at the same time as Donagh (with the same conclusion strangely enough)