Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[Main Street]

 
The one thing I am well aware of is that you haven't a clue what you are talking about.
The £100 ticket again just when I thought you were being (what you call) ironic.


There must be a huge differential between building at the Maze and building in Belfast that I am not aware of.

[SammyG]

The one thing I am well aware of is that you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Pot and kettle

The £100 ticket again just when I thought you were being (what you call) ironic.

WTF are you on about?

There must be a huge differential between building at the Maze and building in Belfast that I am not aware of

The differential is based on smaller capacity and massively reduced infrastructure costs. Surely a clever man like yourself could have worked that out?

[Main Street]

The differential is based on smaller capacity and massively reduced infrastructure costs. Surely a clever man like yourself could have worked that out?

It doesn't take a great deal of cleverness to examine the facts and not take on board guessestimates from someone who shall we say ignores their value.
The figures you have presented for other stadiums also exemplify this laxity with facts, ignoring other values like land value and infrastructure costs.
City Stadium costs can be as much as £7000/seat Arsenal  or closer to home a cheaper €7000/seat Landsdowne

I haven't seen that report on massively reduced infrastructure costs for a  Belfast stadium, where is it?
The only report I have seen is the PWC report which outlines in detail the high infrastructure costs in Belfast.
But by some amazing dexterity you rubbish the PWC figures without demonstrating one example that you understand the PWC figures, without recourse to one fact you claim massively reduced infrastructure costs.

Not that I give two fecks for soccer in NI. If there is a decision to scuttle the Maze then the IFA are more likely to go to the dogs for years. 

[his holiness nb]

1) When did I mention NI supporters?

You didnt, nor did I say you did  

2) What do you base your figures on?

I didnt quote any figures, just said it was a small minority of nationalists that support NI. Not even the biggest OWC bulshitter would argue otherwise.
But feel free to produce figures to prove me wrong.

Sorry who are 'the people'? If you mean the supporters then you couldn't be more wrong, we have been ignored at every turn.

Many of your arguments are due to the location, surely you werent thinking of the awkward trip the team coaches would have??  

Even  though we've spent countless hours researching and analysing the various proposals and have (at last) been shown to be right.

On what I have learned on this thread, thats debatable.

What am I not admiitting now?

Read it Sammy, think then type. I said theres little you will admit to IN GENERAL. Think of the many times you were proved to be telling lies and refused to admit this.
It cant be that hard to remember at least some of them, you do it all the time!

[Evil Genius]

And how would you counter PWC's claims that the extra expense of having to buy a high-cost Belfast site will offset the toal cost (free site & infrastructure) at the Maze?

Snatter,
You and I have said our piece and in the absence of new developments, there's probably not a great deal either of us can add to what we've already posted.

But there is one pretty irrefutable item of fact in this whole debate, of critical importance, which you have misrepresented several times - namely your canard that the Maze site is "free".

As outlined by PWC, it is estimated that the construction of the stadium will cost £126m. This is to be completed by Developers, in return for being allowed to develop the site for houses, retail, industry etc. (In addition, the Government will spend £114m on providing transport and infrastructure support, giving a total stadium cost of £240m.)
http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=87616&pt=n

As we all know, Developers are not Charities. Therefore, they are not going to spend £126m building a stadium unless they believe that the associated development rights are worth at least  that amount - otherwise they could not hope to make a profit.

Therefore, the Maze Stadium site, by the Government's own figures (as valued by PWC), is costing us all at least £126m..

Therefore, for the sake of rational debate, I wish you would stop calling it "free", since it is unquestionably anything but.

Of course, obtaining a suitable, equivalent site in Belfast is liable to cost even more. However, i can think of at least two ways by which this may be avoided.

The first is to develop existing sports sites in co-operation with the owners. For soccer, this might mean redeveloping Windsor Park, which could easily and cheaply be upgraded to hold 20-25,000 seats. As for GAA, I am not familiar with Casement, but I daresay the Government could come to an arrangement to fund the upgrade of that stadium (or if unfeasible, alternative stadia in NI). Rugby is a slightly different case, since when Ulster Rugby got permission and funding to upgrade Ravenhill, the alterations they made actually slightly reduced the capacity (effectively they traded terrace space for corporate entertainment etc). This proves that the new 13,000 capacity is seen by them as being adequate for all but a handful of games, which might have been played at the Maze, but could easily be staged at a revamped Windsor.

The second would be to utilise land which has little or no effective development value, due to planning or usage restrictions. One such example is Ormeau Park. Because of its location and present usage, there is no way on earth anyone could get permission to tarmac over a part of this and build houses, shops, offices etc. Therefore, if BCC were to put it up for sale, no-one would be interested in buying it. Therefore, it effectively has no value. However, it ought to be possible to obtain permission for a change of use from one leisure activity (sports pitches) to another (sports stadium), as was done when part of the Park was given over to the construction of a Tennis/Sports Centre. And, of course, there may be other such sites (Blanchflower Park? Maysfield?) which offer similar opportunities.

In addition to which, none of these is likely to require £114m spent on it by the Government to provide suitable transport and infrastructure links, since Belfast is already the best served location in NI in this regard.

Of course, proponents of the Maze may point to the PWC Report which claims that they considered alternative Belfast locations and concluded that none was cheaper than the Maze. However, this conclusion is unreliable. All along, the Government was insistant that only a single, multi-use stadium, acceptable to all three codes, would be considered. And since the GAA, as was their right, made it perfectly clear that they would not accept any site in Belfast, then the Government was effectively forced to champion the Maze, if it was to get its multi-use stadium. In the light of that, and since the Government was paying for it, we should none of us be too surprised when PWC's Report concluded that the Maze was "cheaper" than Belfast.

Had the Government considered single-use stadia for the three codes, and PWC had looked harder in Belfast, we might have got a very different conclusion.

[SammyG]

The differential is based on smaller capacity and massively reduced infrastructure costs. Surely a clever man like yourself could have worked that out?

It doesn't take a great deal of cleverness to examine the facts and not take on board guessestimates from someone who shall we say ignores their value.
The figures you have presented for other stadiums also exemplify this laxity with facts, ignoring other values like land value and infrastructure costs.

SO let me get this straight. When we're costing the Maze we have to ignore land costs (it's free after all) and infrastructure, so that the figures add up but when we're talking about a Belfast site we have to include the build cost plus the land and infrastructure values!!! I presume you work for either PWC or the NIO?

p.s. the figures I quoted were for total build not just stadium costs (but you knew that already)

City Stadium costs can be as much as £7000/seat Arsenal  or closer to home a cheaper €7000/seat Landsdowne

They can and they can be as low as £1278 per seat at Swansea or £1193 per seat at Wigan.

I haven't seen that report on massively reduced infrastructure costs for a  Belfast stadium, where is it?

For the umpteenth time it hasn't been produced yet as a site hasn't even been chosen/costed but Belfast doesn't need an entire new road system, it already has bus and train access, it already has hotels/pubs/car parks etc, so they won't need to be built specially.

The only report I have seen is the PWC report which outlines in detail the high infrastructure costs in Belfast.
But by some amazing dexterity you rubbish the PWC figures without demonstrating one example that you understand the PWC figures, without recourse to one fact you claim massively reduced infrastructure costs.

This is getting silly now. I repeat again I have not given any response to the PWC figures, on this thread. So how can I have rubbished them? For the umpteenth time, if you want to debate the report, line by line, let me know.

Not that I give two fecks for soccer in NI. If there is a decision to scuttle the Maze then the IFA are more likely to go to the dogs for years. 

I'd take my chances with a more than likely rather than go to the Maze and make it definite. The Maze would have killed off sport in NI, within a few years, as it soaked up all the available resources, to try and justify itself. Thank fcuk it now looks likely that it won't be happening.

[saffron sam2]

we are talking about a football only stadium and football is now and always has been totally cross-community.

A wee song for SammyG

He sits alone at a table in a small cafe
Drowning his tears in a bottomless cup of coffee
And hes tumbling into his thoughts
His memories are all tied in knots
And who is going to save him
No one wants to know him

She stands alone in a place where no one knows her name
She catches them staring they turn around and vanish the frame
And shes nursing her head and her pride
She died long ago deep down inside
And who is going to save her
No one wants to know her

(CHORUS)
I cant believe that youd pull on a sleeve when you cry
You stick in the knife then give the kiss of life
Live the lie
And we all have a saviour
So do yourself a favour
Stop livin the lie

He sits alone and looks up to the eyes of an angel
She catches him staring and smiles the smile of an angel
And she asks him if this chair is free
He said yes will you sit here with me
No one would have saved him
We should all learn from them

(CHORUS)
Lie.... lie.... stop livin the lie

[Donagh]

Gerry Kelly on the radio this morning said it's Long Kesh or nothing. About time that bunch of pansies stood up for themselves.

[SammyG]

Gerry Kelly on the radio this morning said it's Long Kesh or nothing. About time that bunch of pansies stood up for themselves.

Just as well he doesn't make decisions on sports funding then, isn't it.

[Donagh]

Gerry Kelly on the radio this morning said it's Long Kesh or nothing. About time that bunch of pansies stood up for themselves.

Just as well he doesn't make decisions on sports funding then, isn't it.

He said they would use their veto to block any other stadium other that that originally agreed for Long Kesh.

[SammyG]

Gerry Kelly on the radio this morning said it's Long Kesh or nothing. About time that bunch of pansies stood up for themselves.

Just as well he doesn't make decisions on sports funding then, isn't it.

He said they would use their veto to block any other stadium other that that originally agreed for Long Kesh.

And I repeat again that no party has a veto on sports funding. Providing the request adds up and is made through the correct channels, then any attempt to veto it would result in a court case. And that ignores the fact that there never was (and hopefully never will be) any agreement on the Maze site. It was always subject to the business case and as it doesn't add up then the projecvt is dead.

[Donagh]

Gerry Kelly on the radio this morning said it's Long Kesh or nothing. About time that bunch of pansies stood up for themselves.

Just as well he doesn't make decisions on sports funding then, isn't it.

He said they would use their veto to block any other stadium other that that originally agreed for Long Kesh.

And I repeat again that no party has a veto on sports funding. Providing the request adds up and is made through the correct channels, then any attempt to veto it would result in a court case. And that ignores the fact that there never was (and hopefully never will be) any agreement on the Maze site. It was always subject to the business case and as it doesn't add up then the projecvt is dead.

You're wrong Sammy. A simple 'petition of concern' is all that is needed by SF and they have the numbers to deny cross community support and ensure no other stadium is built.

[SammyG]

Gerry Kelly on the radio this morning said it's Long Kesh or nothing. About time that bunch of pansies stood up for themselves.

Just as well he doesn't make decisions on sports funding then, isn't it.

He said they would use their veto to block any other stadium other that that originally agreed for Long Kesh.

And I repeat again that no party has a veto on sports funding. Providing the request adds up and is made through the correct channels, then any attempt to veto it would result in a court case. And that ignores the fact that there never was (and hopefully never will be) any agreement on the Maze site. It was always subject to the business case and as it doesn't add up then the projecvt is dead.

You're wrong Sammy. A simple 'petition of concern' is all that is needed by SF and they have the numbers to deny cross community support and ensure no other stadium is built.

We'll see, although it would be funny to see the 'Ireland of equals' brigade trying to block a cross-community stadium. purely out of spite, rather than for any sporting or monetary reason.

[Donagh]

Gerry Kelly on the radio this morning said it's Long Kesh or nothing. About time that bunch of pansies stood up for themselves.

Just as well he doesn't make decisions on sports funding then, isn't it.

He said they would use their veto to block any other stadium other that that originally agreed for Long Kesh.

And I repeat again that no party has a veto on sports funding. Providing the request adds up and is made through the correct channels, then any attempt to veto it would result in a court case. And that ignores the fact that there never was (and hopefully never will be) any agreement on the Maze site. It was always subject to the business case and as it doesn't add up then the projecvt is dead.

You're wrong Sammy. A simple 'petition of concern' is all that is needed by SF and they have the numbers to deny cross community support and ensure no other stadium is built.

We'll see, although it would be funny to see the 'Ireland of equals' brigade trying to block a cross-community stadium. purely out of spite, rather than for any sporting or monetary reason.

There's no we'll see about it Sammy, that's fact, but on your other points:
1. A stadium at DB would not be cross community
2. The nationalist electorate are crying out for SF to stand up to the DUP after they blocked the ILA "out of spite" and the insulting comments about the GAA made by Dodds and Morrow earlier in the week. 

[SammyG]

1. A stadium at DB would not be cross community

1) I never mentioned DB
2) Even if it was at DB it would still be cross-community as both football and rugby are cross-community
3) Even if neither of those were true, the IFA can still aplly for funding in the normal way and be accepted or rejected.

2. The nationalist electorate are crying out for SF to stand up to the DUP after they blocked the ILA "out of spite" and the insulting comments about the GAA made by Dodds and Morrow earlier in the week. 

Sorry but I can't see what some petty squabble between the DUP and SF has to do with sport in NI.