Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[snatter]

It is notable that Croekr is now generally unavailable for Ulster matches - especially after we generously allowed soccer and rugby to camp there.
If the same two matches were played now, we would have a forced combined attendance of 64000.
If anything, these two matches underline just how much we could do with the Maze!

It is the GAA's choice to rent Croke out to the IRFU and FAI. They are perfectly entitled to withhold use of the stadium should soccer or rugby matches conflict with their own needs (indeed they have, come to think of it, since ROI are playing a "home" match vs Colombia in London in May). Or are you seriously saying the GAA couldn't find a date for an Ulster Final between Armagh and Tyrone at Croke because of a soccer or rugby match taking priority? 
Anyhow, the present use of Croke by FAI/IRFU is only temporary (2-3 years?). Whereas the Maze will have to last for the next 50-odd years.

Evil,

You may scoff and disbelieve, but the truth is that Croker has been removed as an option for Ulster championship matches.

If you don't believe me, maybe you would believe the GAA, or BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/6359015.stm

Croke ruled out for Ulster final

Croke Park has successfully hosted the last three Ulster finals
This year's Ulster senior football final will not be held in Croke Park.

GAA's headquarters has hosted the last three deciders but the 2006
Leinster final has been scheduled for the same day as the Ulster
showpiece - 15 July.

This means that the Ulster final is set to return to Clones, which has a
capacity of just over 30,000.

"It's beyond our control. The decison was taken by Congress to alleviate
national fixture congestion," said Ulster PRO Martin Martin McAvinney.

The Ulster Council Annual Report states that "due to the changes invoked
by the Special Congress the future use of our National Stadium has
effectively been removed from us".

The move to Croke Park from Clones in 2004 was a controversial decision
but each Ulster final has been hailed as a success.

The Dublin stadium's superior capacity of 82,000 was the reason for the
move south.

The Ulster Council Annual Convention will take place in Toome on 24
February.

The convention will see Michael Greenan step down as Ulster Council
President after three years in the post - his successor is Donegal man
Tom Daly.

The council will also reaffirm its commitment to a possible new national
stadium for Northern Ireland.

[SammyG]

GAA's headquarters has hosted the last three deciders but the 2006
Leinster final has been scheduled for the same day as the Ulster
showpiece - 15 July.

This means that the Ulster final is set to return to Clones, which has a
capacity of just over 30,000.

It doesn't mention football/rugby, it was double booked because the Leinster final was on the same day.  Also I'm not sure how it would be a problem as neither football or rugby matches are played on the 15th of July.

[SammyG]

Absolutely fantastic stadium,73000 seats, retractable roof, retractable pitch, even air-conditioning!!! and all built for about the same as the estimates for the Maze.

were ever you there?

Not yet, hoping to visit the next time I'm in the states

[snatter]

The crowds for the remaining 12 matches varied from 10,500 to 32,187 (plus the anomaly of the 3,865 Cavan/Antrim replay), which equals an average of 20,632. Clearly, with 42k GAA places, the Maze would be too big.

Not so, again some of these attendances were constrained by capacity.
I can't recall offhand exactly which ones, but my guess is that a fair few were played at Omagh (capacity back then of 20 something thousand?).

Your logic is again awry. Matches which achieved attendances of 30k+ cannot have been played at Healy Park. Which means, if HP's capacity was 20k+, that Matches 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 were not sold out, even in a small-to-medium sized stadium. Therefore, why would they need 42k for games attracting, say, 18k in a stadium holding greater than that? Which again demonstrates how your figures show that of 16 or 18 major Ulster games p.a., most only require a small-medium venue, but some require a v.large venue (CP), leaving only a handful requiring a medium-large venue like the Maze. And for those, Clones is available.

No gap in my or the GAA's logic. We'll easily make use of any shared stadium.
The GAA has committed to putting a minimum of 150000 bums on seats per year (versus an IFA commitment of 80k, and IRFU commitment of 40k).

My guess is that would include

• the Ulster final 42k?
• two semi finals 2 * 32k?
• one/two AI quarter final (1/2) * 42k?
• one biannual aussie rules match

[snatter]

GAA's headquarters has hosted the last three deciders but the 2006
Leinster final has been scheduled for the same day as the Ulster
showpiece - 15 July.

This means that the Ulster final is set to return to Clones, which has a
capacity of just over 30,000.

It doesn't mention football/rugby, it was double booked because the Leinster final was on the same day.  Also I'm not sure how it would be a problem as neither football or rugby matches are played on the 15th of July.

Sammy,

the important bit was helpfully highlighted in red.
Here, I'll make it bigger and put in orange on  black background.
That might make it easier for to read when you're wearing your OWC goggles.


"It's beyond our control. The decison was taken by Congress to alleviate
national fixture congestion," said Ulster PRO Martin Martin McAvinney.

The Ulster Council Annual Report states that "due to the changes invoked
by the Special Congress the future use of our National Stadium has
effectively been removed from us".

[SammyG]

GAA's headquarters has hosted the last three deciders but the 2006
Leinster final has been scheduled for the same day as the Ulster
showpiece - 15 July.

This means that the Ulster final is set to return to Clones, which has a
capacity of just over 30,000.

It doesn't mention football/rugby, it was double booked because the Leinster final was on the same day.  Also I'm not sure how it would be a problem as neither football or rugby matches are played on the 15th of July.

Sammy,

the important bit was helpfully highlighted in red.
Here, I'll make it bigger and put in orange on  black background.
That might make it easier for to read when you're wearing your OWC goggles.


"It's beyond our control. The decison was taken by Congress to alleviate
national fixture congestion," said Ulster PRO Martin Martin McAvinney.

The Ulster Council Annual Report states that "due to the changes invoked
by the Special Congress the future use of our National Stadium has
effectively been removed from us".

Highlighting them doesn't make them any more true. I repeat football and rugby don't play on the 15th of July, the clash was with the Leinster final (which presumably the GAA decided was more important).

[snatter]

Have you read my earlier post - the one in which the GAA itself establishes that it does indeed need a 40k + stadium in Ulster?

Did you read within the same post that UCC economists have independently verified the attendance assumptions and costings?

Did you notice that the attendance figures used in the justification were from the early 1990's?
Championshiop attendances have actually gone up markedly since then.

There is a difference between "need" and "want" - especially when Govt money for the former is not forthcoming, but is for the latter, indeed "free" of charge! Ideally, I might "need" an expensive cashmere coat for the occasional severe storm like today's, but I can't afford one. However, if someone offers me a Duffle Coat for nothing, I'm hardly going to say no, especially when it will prove perfectly serviceable 90% of the time!

As for the UCC economists, there have been other, equally independent analysts (e.g. NITB, UU) whgo have rubbished the case for the Maze. You pays your economists money, you take your choice...

As for attendance figures, I have used those from 2005, as supplied by you.

If the GAA itself and independent economists both agree that it does need, and can afford to build a 40k capaity stadium in Ulster, what makes you feel qualified to say that they don't?

THE NEED HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED.
THE MAZE MEETS THAT NEED.
IF ITS BUILT, THE GAA WILL HEAVILY USE IT. FULL STOP.

The GAA has not "established" an unanswerable case for anything. Rather, they have asserted why they would accept the Maze. As others here have pointed out, at least part of their motivation is likely that they don't want to be seen to be so ungrateful as to say "No" to a "sharted space" venture which is being supplied for free. And for all the Reports and Statements etc from them, can you discern any real enthusiasm? For instance, why weren't they jumping up and down at the delays which have been experienced up to now, never mind since the weekend's rumours that the stadium may be scrapped?

Evil,

you're totally missing the point.
The GAA's strategic report and the UCC's independent verification both came about BEFORE there was even the whiff of agreement on the Maze.
We haven't just dreamt up this 42k capacity because the stadium is free.
The report wan't just about Ulster either - it was setting a national spatial framework for stadium development.
The need for one new high quality was justified on the grounds of the GAA paying for it itself (admittedly an alien concept for NI fans to comprehend).

Of course, once the Maze proposals started to fly, we made sure that (as anchor tenants) that it matched our needs, as previously definedin section 8.4.3 of the SRR.

[snatter]

GAA's headquarters has hosted the last three deciders but the 2006
Leinster final has been scheduled for the same day as the Ulster
showpiece - 15 July.

This means that the Ulster final is set to return to Clones, which has a
capacity of just over 30,000.

It doesn't mention football/rugby, it was double booked because the Leinster final was on the same day.  Also I'm not sure how it would be a problem as neither football or rugby matches are played on the 15th of July.

Sammy,

the important bit was helpfully highlighted in red.
Here, I'll make it bigger and put in orange on  black background.
That might make it easier for to read when you're wearing your OWC goggles.


"It's beyond our control. The decison was taken by Congress to alleviate
national fixture congestion," said Ulster PRO Martin Martin McAvinney.

The Ulster Council Annual Report states that "due to the changes invoked
by the Special Congress the future use of our National Stadium has
effectively been removed from us".

Highlighting them doesn't make them any more true. I repeat football and rugby don't play on the 15th of July, the clash was with the Leinster final (which presumably the GAA decided was more important).

Good grief, lets try again shall we.
When the Ulster Council have been told by the GAA that "the future use of our National Stadium has
effectively been removed from us", they mean that "the future use of our National Stadium has
effectively been removed from us".

ie, NO ULSTER CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES CAN NOW BE PLAYED THERE IN FUTURE.
Tonight's key word Sammy - FUTURE.

The Ulster Council weren't referring to a past one-off ban from Croker - they were referring to a FUTURE ban that has already been enacted by the GAA.

That's right - Croker is getting used too much and Ulster have been told to push off in future.
They will not be able to play Ulster championship games there in future.
In future they will not be able to play games there.
Is it sinking in yet?
Do you gettit?

You know - the future - the thing that most OWC'ers are diametrically opposed to when they hark back to the past, to a mythical age when they could just ignore the most attended sport in Northern Ireland, and pretend that it and its more numerous spectators didn't exist.

I thought the orange on black would have worked, christ this is hard work.
Gettit?

[SammyG]

GAA's headquarters has hosted the last three deciders but the 2006
Leinster final has been scheduled for the same day as the Ulster
showpiece - 15 July.

This means that the Ulster final is set to return to Clones, which has a
capacity of just over 30,000.

It doesn't mention football/rugby, it was double booked because the Leinster final was on the same day.  Also I'm not sure how it would be a problem as neither football or rugby matches are played on the 15th of July.

Sammy,

the important bit was helpfully highlighted in red.
Here, I'll make it bigger and put in orange on  black background.
That might make it easier for to read when you're wearing your OWC goggles.


"It's beyond our control. The decison was taken by Congress to alleviate
national fixture congestion," said Ulster PRO Martin Martin McAvinney.

The Ulster Council Annual Report states that "due to the changes invoked
by the Special Congress the future use of our National Stadium has
effectively been removed from us".

Highlighting them doesn't make them any more true. I repeat football and rugby don't play on the 15th of July, the clash was with the Leinster final (which presumably the GAA decided was more important).

Good grief, lets try again shall we.
When the Ulster Council have been told by the GAA that "the future use of our National Stadium has
effectively been removed from us", they mean that "the future use of our National Stadium has
effectively been removed from us".

ie, NO ULSTER CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES CAN NOW BE PLAYED THERE IN FUTURE.
Tonight's key word Sammy - FUTURE.

The Ulster Council weren't referring to a past one-off ban from Croker - they were referring to a FUTURE ban that has already been enacted by the GAA.
That's right - Croker is getting used too much and Ulster have been told to push off in future.
They will not be able to play Ulster championship games there in future.
In future they will not be able to play games there.

Is it sinking in yet?
Do you gettit?

You know - the future - the thing that most OWC'ers are diametrically opposed to when they hark back to the past, to a mythical age when they could just ignore the most attended sport in Northern Ireland, and pretend that it and its more numerous specators doesn't exist.

I thought the orange on black would have worked, christ this is hard work.
Gettit?

Right let me get this straight. It's the IFA's fault that the GAA decided, that the Leinster final was more important than the Ulster final and therefore we should sign up to a stadiium, which is too big, too expensive, has no infrastructure and no way of getting to. Right OK got that, thanks for the clarification. 

[SammyG]

Historically the GAA community has not done well out of govt funding in Northern Ireland:

Fcuk me, after all this time the penny has finally dropped, you're on a wind-up. I've got to say congratulations, you had me, for a while but you just pushed it slightly to far.

GAA not getting enough funding, that's brilliant. 

[snatter]

GAA's headquarters has hosted the last three deciders but the 2006
Leinster final has been scheduled for the same day as the Ulster
showpiece - 15 July.

This means that the Ulster final is set to return to Clones, which has a
capacity of just over 30,000.

It doesn't mention football/rugby, it was double booked because the Leinster final was on the same day.  Also I'm not sure how it would be a problem as neither football or rugby matches are played on the 15th of July.

Sammy,

the important bit was helpfully highlighted in red.
Here, I'll make it bigger and put in orange on  black background.
That might make it easier for to read when you're wearing your OWC goggles.


"It's beyond our control. The decison was taken by Congress to alleviate
national fixture congestion," said Ulster PRO Martin Martin McAvinney.

The Ulster Council Annual Report states that "due to the changes invoked
by the Special Congress the future use of our National Stadium has
effectively been removed from us".

Highlighting them doesn't make them any more true. I repeat football and rugby don't play on the 15th of July, the clash was with the Leinster final (which presumably the GAA decided was more important).

Good grief, lets try again shall we.
When the Ulster Council have been told by the GAA that "the future use of our National Stadium has
effectively been removed from us", they mean that "the future use of our National Stadium has
effectively been removed from us".

ie, NO ULSTER CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES CAN NOW BE PLAYED THERE IN FUTURE.
Tonight's key word Sammy - FUTURE.

The Ulster Council weren't referring to a past one-off ban from Croker - they were referring to a FUTURE ban that has already been enacted by the GAA.
That's right - Croker is getting used too much and Ulster have been told to push off in future.
They will not be able to play Ulster championship games there in future.
In future they will not be able to play games there.

Is it sinking in yet?
Do you gettit?

You know - the future - the thing that most OWC'ers are diametrically opposed to when they hark back to the past, to a mythical age when they could just ignore the most attended sport in Northern Ireland, and pretend that it and its more numerous specators doesn't exist.

I thought the orange on black would have worked, christ this is hard work.
Gettit?

Right let me get this straight. It's the IFA's fault that the GAA decided, that the Leinster final was more important than the Ulster final and therefore we should sign up to a stadiium, which is too big, too expensive, has no infrastructure and no way of getting to. Right OK got that, thanks for the clarification. 

Mopery rant over?
Christ, this is supremely hard work.

On my computer, I was merely informing Evil Genius that he was mistaken in thinking that larger Ulster Championship matches could be played at Croke Park.

That's all, not blaming the IFA for the decision, or the bad weather, your paranoia, your delusions, or anything else.
I truly hope you understand.

[Main Street]

Right let me get this straight. It's the IFA's fault that the GAA decided, that the Leinster final was more important than the Ulster final and therefore we should sign up to a stadiium, which is too big, too expensive, has no infrastructure and no way of getting to. Right OK got that, thanks for the clarification. 

Are you having another episode already?
Just when I thought you couldn't possibly post anything as stupid as earlier today, you come up with this gem.
It's a ribtickler.

[snatter]

Historically the GAA community has not done well out of govt funding in Northern Ireland:

Fcuk me, after all this time the penny has finally dropped, you're on a wind-up. I've got to say congratulations, you had me, for a while but you just pushed it slightly to far.

GAA not getting enough funding, that's brilliant. 

What?

Sports Council statistics show that out of 662 council-owned pitches; just 59 are set aside for Gaelic games.  Fact.

I suppose under OWC accountancy rules, that sounds like a fair allocation to the GAA?

[SammyG]

Right let me get this straight. It's the IFA's fault that the GAA decided, that the Leinster final was more important than the Ulster final and therefore we should sign up to a stadiium, which is too big, too expensive, has no infrastructure and no way of getting to. Right OK got that, thanks for the clarification. 

Are you having another episode already?
Just when I thought you couldn't possibly post anything as stupid as earlier today, you come up with this gem.
It's a ribtickler.

Glad you enjoyed it, and good to see that your irony bypass was a complet success.

[SammyG]

Historically the GAA community has not done well out of govt funding in Northern Ireland:

Fcuk me, after all this time the penny has finally dropped, you're on a wind-up. I've got to say congratulations, you had me, for a while but you just pushed it slightly to far.

GAA not getting enough funding, that's brilliant. 

What?

Sports Council statistics show that out of 662 council-owned pitches; just 59 are set aside for Gaelic games.  Fact.

I suppose under OWC accountancy rules, that sounds like a fair allocation to the GAA?

What have council pitches got to do with anything? You were talking about funding or have you realised you were talking shite and decided to change the subject.

p.s. How many of the publically funded GAA grounds are available to other sports?