Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[his holiness nb]

Have a look at the posting times. Most of the detailed answers are at 10 or 11 at night. As sad as it is the Maze is one of my highest priority 'leisure time' issues. I spend far too much time, either on message boards or contacting MLAs/MPs/Councillors or making freedom of information requests or reading studies from other stadia or contacting designers/planners etc etc etc. If this goes ahead it will be the end of football in NI, within 5 years, so any time spent stopping it will be well spent, in my opinion.

Cheers, one of the main reasons I dont get back with the required "examples" etc when asked for them is purely down to trying to squeeze quick posts in between work!
I suppose if its a priority its a priority, no matter what your argument.

p.s. Football will last for many many years in NI regardless, not sure about soccer though 

[snatter]

Morning Sammy,

Morning

The typical GAA crowd undoubtedly has a far higher percentage of families than NI soccer matches.

I haven't seen any figures but I'd be amazed if that was true.

Sammy,

not only is it a general observation, but empirical evidence backs my statement.
In the early 90's, when Ulster GAA belatedly started to get the TV media its attendences deserved, the Ulster Council commssioned a survey on the make-up of typical GAA crowds.
The purpose was to make it easier for agencies to sell advertising/sponsorship to potential clients.
The survey found that GAA crowds broadly reflected the socio-economic profile of society as a whole. The survey found that rlster rugby tended to attract more ABC's, whilst local soccer was skewed towardds higher numebrs of DEF's.
One clear exception stood out - the proportion of women and kids at GAA matches far exceeded that of local rugby or  soccer.

More recently, the ESRI report on recreational acticivity in ireland reported that the GAA had a startlingly higher female participation and attendance rate than other international sports. This is merely a reflection of the GAA's strong family base. The ESRI report is still online - if you want I'll dig out a link later if you are uncharacteristically inclined to read it.

In this thread, Evil Genuis had no problem accepting that GAA crowds are more family orientated, and indeed wished that the IFA tried to emulate its success in attracting more families, and by extension higher crowds.

[snatter]

Its not about the number of roads, its the ability of those roads to support high volumes of traffic.

At last you finally got it (it's only taken a year  the issue is the lack of road capacity to the Maze and no plans or budget to expand it.

YOU HAVE ALREADY AGREED ON THIS THREAD that the issue of public transport to the maze is of no importance. The vast vast majority of fans travelling to any new stadium anywhere in NI will do so by car.

Sorry I've agreed nothing of the sort. I said that the majority of people using the Maze will HAVE TO use cars. That doesn't mean that public transport isn't an issue.

Sammy,

OK, you pedant, I'll append your statement to mine:
YOU HAVE ALREADY AGREED ON THIS THREAD that the issue of public transport to the maze is of no importance. The vast vast majority of fans travelling to any new stadium anywhere in NI will do so by car becasue ( in the absence of any decent public transport that delivers them from their point of origin to a new stadium anywhere in NI) they will HAVE TO use cars.

End result? Fcuk all differenece in the point I made, namely that public transport is a total red herring for any ni stadium, regardless of location because the vast vast majority of fans will have to use cars to get there.

[SammyG]

Sammy,

not only is it a general observation, but empirical evidence backs my statement.
In the early 90's, when Ulster GAA belatedly started to get the TV media its attendences deserved, the Ulster Council commssioned a survey on the make-up of typical GAA crowds.
The purpose was to make it easier for agencies to sell advertising/sponsorship to potential clients.
The survey found that GAA crowds broadly reflected the socio-economic profile of society as a whole. The survey found that rlster rugby tended to attract more ABC's, whilst local soccer was skewed towardds higher numebrs of DEF's.
One clear exception stood out - the proportion of women and kids at GAA matches far exceeded that of local rugby or  soccer.

More recently, the ESRI report on recreational acticivity in ireland reported that the GAA had a startlingly higher female participation and attendance rate than other international sports. This is merely a reflection of the GAA's strong family base. The ESRI report is still online - if you want I'll dig out a link later if you are uncharacteristically inclined to read it.

A report from the early 90's would definitely show football as being a 16-24 working class male sport, luckily things have moved on and the crowd now contains a very high proportion of women and kids, as well as disabled groups, community groups, schools etc.

In this thread, Evil Genuis had no problem accepting that GAA crowds are more family orientated, and indeed wished that the IFA tried to emulate its success in attracting more families, and by extension higher crowds.

Slightly different issue, most other sports fans (including me) are jealous of the GAA and would like to attract the sort of crowds that the GAA do, that doesn't mean that we don't have families at football or rugby matches.

[snatter]

Donagh's right the GAA culture is to support your team wherever they play. Our epic journeys to and especially from Clones make the journey to the maze look like a sunday stroll in comparison.

Aye the lads that travel to Azerbijan, or the Carribean or the US or Estonia (to name a few recent trips) are all worried about travelling a few miles to watch their team.  You know full well that the distance to/from the Maze is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

Agreed, distance isn't the issue - its journey time. If you're prepared to travel to Azerbaijan, then you'll find the trip to the Maze much quicker (and much quicker than the one to Clones that up to 36k GAA fans make routinely).
I genuinely don't see your problem here.

To be honest its pointless debating this one with you any further. All Clones attending GAA fans laugh at you guys whinging about going from Belfast to teh MAze, but you guys think it will be some sort of epic journey, taking half a day to get there.
I guess only a qualified traffic engineer would be able to accurately study journey times of those who would use any new stadium.

Again, that another reason why yesterdays UUJ report was rubbish - it chose not to establish the numbers, frequency and trasnport mode of those most likely to use the stadium. My guess - it would have cruelly exposed that the vast majorityu of users would be GAA fans from south and west Ulster.

[SammyG]

Its not about the number of roads, its the ability of those roads to support high volumes of traffic.

At last you finally got it (it's only taken a year  the issue is the lack of road capacity to the Maze and no plans or budget to expand it.

YOU HAVE ALREADY AGREED ON THIS THREAD that the issue of public transport to the maze is of no importance. The vast vast majority of fans travelling to any new stadium anywhere in NI will do so by car.

Sorry I've agreed nothing of the sort. I said that the majority of people using the Maze will HAVE TO use cars. That doesn't mean that public transport isn't an issue.

Sammy,

OK, you pedant, I'll append your statement to mine:
YOU HAVE ALREADY AGREED ON THIS THREAD that the issue of public transport to the maze is of no importance. The vast vast majority of fans travelling to any new stadium anywhere in NI will do so by car becasue ( in the absence of any decent public transport that delivers them from their point of origin to a new stadium anywhere in NI) they will HAVE TO use cars.

End result? Fcuk all differenece in the point I made, namely that public transport is a total red herring for any ni stadium, regardless of location because the vast vast majority of fans will have to use cars to get there.

Do you need a hand moving those goalposts or are you alright?

[snatter]

Sorry, Sammy. The quesition of neutrality was answered by myself only a few posts ago. I explained to you why most GAA fans would perceived the Maze as a safe neutral space. My answer was an exact  repetition of my replies to you on the same question over the last few years, so not only has the question been answered in this thread, it was answered a long time ago. Perhaps you can explain why you continually ignore the existence of answers given.

You keep repeating the same answer about your PERCEPTION but you refuse to answer the question about the REALITY. A bit like your answer about the amazing moveable stands. 

Anyway I'm away to work. I'll check back later when I get a minute.

SammyG,

the REALITY is that a neutral site can not be clearly defined.
A neutral location is not a concrete object that can be accurately measured.

In a divided society like NI, neutrality is itself a PERCEPTION.
One person's view of a neutral location might differ from anothers, and people may disagree on what exactly construes a neutral site.

Another shortcoming of yesterday's UUJ report is that it was not empowered to actually explore what GAA fans / Nationalists / et al defined as a neutral site, or the degree of concensus within each group.
Imho, the UUJ academics should have commissioned QUB's highly esteemed school of Ethnic Geography who specialise in studying how human perceptions of safety / threat in divided socities affect land use patterns. Do a google on work by Prof Boal if you want to read more.

To illiustrate, Donagh reckoned that an unsafe area was one that entailed him having to drive through a loyalist area to get to it.
My own definition would focus in on the immediate area that borders the walk from where I'd park my car to the stadium, and how accessible that area was to neighbouring hard core areas, eg lower ravenhill road.
Other GAA fans (possibly remembering unionist rioting and disorder in July 1996) might say that anywhere close to Belfast is too risky, given that loyalists / OO whoever could block roads to prevent anyone getting to a GAA match.

MY guit feeling is that most GAA fans would be happier with the Maze than any site in Belfast because they perceive it as a little too risky when travlelling into Belfast as part of a 40k strong GAA support. The sheer numbers of GAA fans would be too tempting for the hard core sectarian minority within loyalist areas who would be tempted to abuse them.

The failure of the anti-Maze brigade to come up with an alternative neutral site acceptable to the GAA and other bodies after two years suggets that that there mightn't actually be one in Belfast.

[nifan]

Snatter - it isnt just Belfast NI fans that are against the Maze.
Those from other parts of NI have also come out against it.

[snatter]

Sammy,

not only is it a general observation, but empirical evidence backs my statement.
In the early 90's, when Ulster GAA belatedly started to get the TV media its attendences deserved, the Ulster Council commssioned a survey on the make-up of typical GAA crowds.
The purpose was to make it easier for agencies to sell advertising/sponsorship to potential clients.
The survey found that GAA crowds broadly reflected the socio-economic profile of society as a whole. The survey found that rlster rugby tended to attract more ABC's, whilst local soccer was skewed towardds higher numebrs of DEF's.
One clear exception stood out - the proportion of women and kids at GAA matches far exceeded that of local rugby or  soccer.

More recently, the ESRI report on recreational acticivity in ireland reported that the GAA had a startlingly higher female participation and attendance rate than other international sports. This is merely a reflection of the GAA's strong family base. The ESRI report is still online - if you want I'll dig out a link later if you are uncharacteristically inclined to read it.

A report from the early 90's would definitely show football as being a 16-24 working class male sport, luckily things have moved on and the crowd now contains a very high proportion of women and kids, as well as disabled groups, community groups, schools etc.

In this thread, Evil Genuis had no problem accepting that GAA crowds are more family orientated, and indeed wished that the IFA tried to emulate its success in attracting more families, and by extension higher crowds.

Slightly different issue, most other sports fans (including me) are jealous of the GAA and would like to attract the sort of crowds that the GAA do, that doesn't mean that we don't have families at football or rugby matches.

Sorry Sammy,

that's not the point you were making.
You said you would be amazed if GAA attendences had a much higher proportion of families attending than NI soccer.
The recent ESRI re-confirms my statement as correct.

Yes, soccer may have increased its level of families attending since the 1990's, but the GAA levels are still way in excess of the IFA's.
Goalposts moved back into place!

[snatter]

Snatter - it isnt just Belfast NI fans that are against the Maze.
Those from other parts of NI have also come out against it.

Yep,

I'd accept that, but that's not the core issue.

The core issue is that the anti-Maze brigade have failed to come up with any alternative neutral site acceptable to the governing bodies of all three sports.

In the absence of any alternative, then any publicly backed project within the Govt's Shared Spaces strategy has to proceed on the only agreed site available.

[SammyG]

The core issue is that the anti-Maze brigade have failed to come up with any alternative neutral site acceptable to the governing bodies of all three sports.

In the absence of any alternative, then any publicly backed project within the Govt's Shared Spaces strategy has to proceed on the only agreed site available.

Even if your statement was ture (which it clearly isn't) it would still make no sense. You're saying that we should continue with an economically unviable site, with no infrastruture, no access, no hotels ,no bars etc etc etc just because you don't want to look at the alternatives. Even if there was NO alternatives on the table the Maze would still be wrong for all the reasons that have already been laid out. You can't waste £100's of millions of tax-payers money just because there are no alternatives.

[snatter]

Guys, its a bit off topic, but how in the hell do some of you have time to go into such detail so regularly?

Have a look at the posting times. Most of the detailed answers are at 10 or 11 at night. As sad as it is the Maze is one of my highest priority 'leisure time' issues. I spend far too much time, either on message boards or contacting MLAs/MPs/Councillors or making freedom of information requests or reading studies from other stadia or contacting designers/planners etc etc etc. If this goes ahead it will be the end of football in NI, within 5 years, so any time spent stopping it will be well spent, in my opinion.

To be honest, I've long since given up trying to influence the OWC brigade.
For the past few years they seem to be on some sort of delusional crusade to get a wee stadium for themselves out of the public purse, that suits them perfectly but not a sport that attracts ten times more specators.

The only reason I bother with this is

1.
to keep the issue high in the consciousness of GAA fans, to make sure that these guys don't get away with it, and to ensure that we get fairly catered for.
I keep exposing their argument as flawed just in case any weaker GAA souls (like slow corner back) fall for their lies and accept some carve-up of the money as being acceptable.
Any carve up of the govt money would undoubtedly leave us worse off, as it would fail to reflect our higher attendences and more expensive build costs for large sized gaa stadia.

2.
I genuinely believe that the long term futuer of GAA in N Ireland relies on getting unionists to accept it as no more threatening than irish dancing.
A high class shared stadium , accesible to many unionists in greater belfast area gives us a far better stage to sell our games to them than some desolate uncovered concrete bowl in Clones.

[snatter]

The core issue is that the anti-Maze brigade have failed to come up with any alternative neutral site acceptable to the governing bodies of all three sports.

In the absence of any alternative, then any publicly backed project within the Govt's Shared Spaces strategy has to proceed on the only agreed site available.

Even if your statement was ture (which it clearly isn't)

Oh I must have missed that announcement.
Where exactly is this new alternative neutral site, acceptable to all three governing bodies?

Have you got a google map link to it or something?
Or is it buried somewhere deep in your head, alongside your reality filter?

[SammyG]

I genuinely believe that the long term futuer of GAA in N Ireland relies on getting unionists to accept it as no more threatening than irish dancing.
A high class shared stadium , accesible to many unionists in greater belfast area gives us a far better stage to sell our games to them than some desolate uncovered concrete bowl in Clones.

100% agree, so why have you been arguing for the Maze for the last year or more? 

[snatter]

I genuinely believe that the long term futuer of GAA in N Ireland relies on getting unionists to accept it as no more threatening than irish dancing.
A high class shared stadium , accesible to many unionists in greater belfast area gives us a far better stage to sell our games to them than some desolate uncovered concrete bowl in Clones.

100% agree, so why have you been arguing for the Maze for the last year or more? 

as already stated in this thread, whilst not exactly passionate about the Maze, it does appear to be the only neutral location accepatable to all three sports' governing bodies.

I would definately categorise the Maze as being within the greater belfast area, its less than 10 miles away ffs.
Just fyi, in geographic parlance, the "greater" area arround a city describes an immediate catchment area, whose inhabitants are higly relient on the services of the main city.