Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[stiffler]

Lads theres no point arguing with Samuel et al. Its quite obvious they want a new soccer stadium for norn iron, that does not involve sharing with the GAA full stop. 

More lies. I have always said and continue to say that the stadium should be used by as many sports as possible.

They said that the stadium will be too big if they share with the GAA, then when the plans came out resolving this isssue they moved the goalposts and said that the 'atmosphere' at games would be greatly affected with the increased pitch size. Didnt seem to affect the Irish Rugby matches in Croke Park,mind you.

Absolute bollix. Have you actually read any of the discussions or do you just make it up as you go along? The issue with the Maze is lack of infrastructure, it doesn't matter if the capacity is 10K or 100K if you can't actually get to the bloody stadium.

p.s. when did plans come out to change the capacity?

The initial plans where for a 35000 seater then due to the GAA requiring a Stadium over 40,000 to make the project viable there was a change to the design to accomodate standing which can be replaced by seating for the soccer games.

stiffler,

don't waste your energy. We've been her before over several months.
Forget everything you've ever read about a variable 35k / 42k capacity.

In Sammy's world its all a plot by journalists, shinners,  commies, etc.
Don't show him any new reports, articles, academic reports that say otherwise.

You're wasting your time.
Sammy's stock response is that he personally hasn't seen the document, which in Sammy's world means it doesn't exist.
Couldn't possibly, because that might mean that Sammy is wrong.

I know what you mean Snatter, as i said before, its the British stiff upper lip mentality. No admitted your wrong at any cost.

Ah well, what can you expect from a pig but a grunt.

[SammyG]

stiffler,

don't waste your energy. We've been her before over several months.
Forget everything you've ever read about a variable 35k / 42k capacity.

In Sammy's world its all a plot by journalists, shinners,  commies, etc.
Don't show him any new reports, articles, academic reports that say otherwise.

You're wasting your time.
Sammy's stock response is that he personally hasn't seen the document, which in Sammy's world means it doesn't exist.
Couldn't possibly, because that might mean that Sammy is wrong.

More lies, you do realise that if you keep repeating a lie it doesn't become true. The only proposal for a changeable capacity was a press statement from Poots. He and his department have been asked, several times, to provide details of how this can work and he has refused.

[SammyG]

SammyG,

What lack of equality and what mutually beneficial 'Shared Spaces' strategy?

Says it all really.
You spout on here, fabricating to your heart's content, and quite plainly don't even know the basics of the Govt strategy on which the Maze proposal is based.
Breathtaking ignorace and arrogance in one.

Why don't you navigate away from here for a day or two and go do some much needed reading.

So other than being abusive are you actually going to answer the question?

[snatter]

SammyG,

Quote from: snatter on June 20, 2007, 11:37:27 PM
OK then, go off and list all issues that I have allegedly not addressed.

in order:

How will the changaable capacity work?

I replied to you multiple times in this thread alone. I'll remind you: Stakeholders -> Design Spec -> Architects HOK -> Design Proposal -> Costings -> Funding Agreements -> Sign Contracts -> Build -> Use Stadium

How many people per hour can get down the single track road to the Maze and how much will it cost to upgrade it?

I replied to you in this thread. Surely you can't forget how I had to explain to you that a motorway has two lanes, is consequently safer and can carry more vehicles per hour. I remember - it made you look even more like an ill-thought out knee jerk argumentative prat.

Is this figure included in the £115 million or is it extra money?

No idea, you never asked me that question. Again refer to easy to follow process flow above.

Where will the extra trains come from and who's going to pay for them?
Where will the extra buses come from and who's going to pay for them?

No idea, you never asked me those questions. I'm sure somebody might be bored enough to find out.
As already stated by me in this thread on multiple occasions, however, public transport is of no relevance here becasue almost everybody in NI will travel to any stadium by car regardless of where it is.
I recollect somebody by the name of SammyG actually agreeing with me.

Where will the fans eat, drink and stay?

You never asked me that question, but I'll give my opinion on it anyway.
Most will eat, drink and stay in south and west Ulster, because ss already stated in this thread, the vast majority of fans will be GAA ones.. Re away soccer fans - First thoughts would be Lisburn / Belfast or somewhere.
Can't see much of a hotel capacity problem given the relatively small number of sccer fans, especially international ones.
To be honest, I don't know too much about how away fans are managed.
when you watch NI abroad, do you travel to and from the match by coach, is it organised, do you always stay in hotels, or are you bussed in and out?

How many private developers have come forward to support the Maze development?

You never asked me that question, but again my guess is none,a s it appears so far anyway to be a publicly led development.
I imagine that private developers would be appointed once contracts are agreed.
Again see simple sammy friendly process flow above.

Why is the Maze seen as neutral, even though it is in a staunchly Loyalist area but the three Belfast sites are seen as not neutral even though they are all in either mixed or Nationalist areas?

You never asked me that question in this thread, but I do have recollections of replying to you on the same question months ago.
I probably told you that most GAA fans hope to be able to drive up/down the M1, off some sort of sliproad in a neutral area, not being within easy reach of bigots.
Admittedly really determined bigots could always drive out to abuse some GAA family, but realistically there would be more chance of casual abuse / menace close to loyalist areas, eg lower ravenhill road

[snatter]

SammyG,

What lack of equality and what mutually beneficial 'Shared Spaces' strategy?

Says it all really.
You spout on here, fabricating to your heart's content, and quite plainly don't even know the basics of the Govt strategy on which the Maze proposal is based.
Breathtaking ignorace and arrogance in one.

Why don't you navigate away from here for a day or two and go do some much needed reading.

So other than being abusive are you actually going to answer the question?

Not being abusive - merely advising you to read up on the govt Shared Spaces strategy.
I could tell you what Shared Spaces is about, but that would be like telling the thick kid the answers to his homework.
It would be to his longer term benefit if he learnt it himself.

Btw, I'll give you a clue of where to start your reading.
Earlier in the thread, you were telling somebody to go away and actually read the UUJ Belfast Propaganda Report.
I suggest you act on your own advise and read page 16 of the same report.
Paragraph 2, section 1.1 gives an overview of what Shared Spaces is all about.

[Donagh]

Lads, is it not possible that some of the disagreements here could be that the soccer boys come from a sporting culture that is very different from ours? As Snatter says there'd be very few Gaels that have an attachment to Maze, but we have a slightly different mindset due to our experience of going to Championship games.

Sammy asks about single track roads and paying for buses to Maze, which are valid questions, and the answer is, the supporters will pay for buses and parking, but the nightmare scenario he/they are attempting to portray could be just exaggeration through concern of the unknown. We are used to sending 30k people down glorified tractor paths into Clones to sit in summer downpours, they are not.

For those that want to do it, hiring a bus for the day usually cost about a tenner per person - money that would be balanced out between the difference of pinting it in the pub and having a few tins on the bus. Presumably hiring the bus for half a day to Maze will not cost as much as Clones.

Apart from that, I feel they are missing out on the potential for the bigger draw their code will have at Maze, on top of the usual typical 16- 28 yo male on the piss. In the GAA we take families to matches who'll predominantly travel by car and enjoy the experience together. With a bit of common sense I can get in and out of Clones in half an hour and I don't see how this can't be managed at Maze which has a motorway as well as all the back roads that lead in and out of Clones. The bigger capacity and improved facilities at the Maze will give the soccer team the ability to facilitate family groups, pensioners, impaired, schools, youth clubs, dance groups, etc, etc, - all of which are the lifeblood of our games – and to be honest, even though we have our share of clowns, that broad mix makes for a more relaxing and even reassuring environment.

As for Sammy's line about neutrality of certain areas, we all know that is a red herring. It's not were the venue is situated but in the north, where you have to travel through to get there that is the main thing.

[SammyG]

Nice load of patronising drivel Donagh, but again you refuse to actually address the issues. To answer a few of your points

There are loads of families (including mine) that go to football.

There are more than one access road to Clones, to try and compare it to the Maze is ridiculous.

Football fans also hire buses to get to and from matches (some of us have TVs and mobile phones and alsorts, you'd be amazed  ) but there aren't enough buses in the whole of NI to get 30-40 K to and from the Maze and even if there was the road couldn't cope.

As far as the new stadium being a potential bigger draw, this is 100% true if people can get to it (ie it is in a town/city). There is no way on earth that a casual fan is going to sit in traffic for hours on end, get to the match late and then sit for hours on end to get home again. You have to remember that only a tiny percentage of NI fans want to stay at WP, the vast majority want a new stadium, for exactly the reasons you outline.

Re neutrality, you (or any other Maze supporters) have refused to answer the simple question. How can a city centre area that is already populated and used by all relegions (including yourself) be seen as not netutral, while the Maze in a staunchly Loyalist area is neutral? It is a very simple question.

[snatter]

Nice load of patronising drivel Donagh, but again you refuse to actually address the issues. To answer a few of your points

There are loads of families (including mine) that go to football.

There are more than one access road to Clones, to try and compare it to the Maze is ridiculous.

Football fans also hire buses to get to and from matches (some of us have TVs and mobile phones and alsorts, you'd be amazed  ) but there aren't enough buses in the whole of NI to get 30-40 K to and from the Maze and even if there was the road couldn't cope.

As far as the new stadium being a potential bigger draw, this is 100% true if people can get to it (ie it is in a town/city). There is no way on earth that a casual fan is going to sit in traffic for hours on end, get to the match late and then sit for hours on end to get home again. You have to remember that only a tiny percentage of NI fans want to stay at WP, the vast majority want a new stadium, for exactly the reasons you outline.

Re neutrality, you (or any other Maze supporters) have refused to answer the simple question. How can a city centre area that is already populated and used by all relegions (including yourself) be seen as not netutral, while the Maze in a staunchly Loyalist area is neutral? It is a very simple question.

Morning Sammy,

The typical GAA crowd undoubtedly has a far higher percentage of families than NI soccer matches.

Its not about the number of roads, its the ability of those roads to support high volumes of traffic.

YOU HAVE ALREADY AGREED ON THIS THREAD that the issue of public transport to the maze is of no importance. The vast vast majority of fans travelling to any new stadium anywhere in NI will do so by car.

Donagh's right the GAA culture is to support your team wherever they play. Our epic journeys to and especially from Clones make the journey to the maze look like a sunday stroll in comparison.

Sorry, Sammy. The quesition of neutrality was answered by myself only a few posts ago. I explained to you why most GAA fans would perceived the Maze as a safe neutral space. My answer was an exact  repetition of my replies to you on the same question over the last few years, so not only has the question been answered in this thread, it was answered a long time ago. Perhaps you can explain why you continually ignore the existence of answers given.

[snatter]

Lads, is it not possible that some of the disagreements here could be that the soccer boys come from a sporting culture that is very different from ours? As Snatter says there'd be very few Gaels that have an attachment to Maze, but we have a slightly different mindset due to our experience of going to Championship games.

Sammy asks about single track roads and paying for buses to Maze, which are valid questions, and the answer is, the supporters will pay for buses and parking, but the nightmare scenario he/they are attempting to portray could be just exaggeration through concern of the unknown. We are used to sending 30k people down glorified tractor paths into Clones to sit in summer downpours, they are not.

For those that want to do it, hiring a bus for the day usually cost about a tenner per person - money that would be balanced out between the difference of pinting it in the pub and having a few tins on the bus. Presumably hiring the bus for half a day to Maze will not cost as much as Clones.

Apart from that, I feel they are missing out on the potential for the bigger draw their code will have at Maze, on top of the usual typical 16- 28 yo male on the piss. In the GAA we take families to matches who'll predominantly travel by car and enjoy the experience together. With a bit of common sense I can get in and out of Clones in half an hour and I don't see how this can't be managed at Maze which has a motorway as well as all the back roads that lead in and out of Clones. The bigger capacity and improved facilities at the Maze will give the soccer team the ability to facilitate family groups, pensioners, impaired, schools, youth clubs, dance groups, etc, etc, - all of which are the lifeblood of our games – and to be honest, even though we have our share of clowns, that broad mix makes for a more relaxing and even reassuring environment.

As for Sammy's line about neutrality of certain areas, we all know that is a red herring. It's not were the venue is situated but in the north, where you have to travel through to get there that is the main thing.

Donagh,

all sensible, all correct.
The problem is that these points were made to the OWC brigade at the start of the debate, a couple of years ago.
They've had more than enough time to consider them, but none of it has appeared to sink in.

The reality is that in all this time they've failed to come up with any better alternative than the Maze which provides an equally neutral  location acceptable to the governing bodies of all three sports.

[SammyG]

Morning Sammy,

Morning

The typical GAA crowd undoubtedly has a far higher percentage of families than NI soccer matches.

I haven't seen any figures but I'd be amazed if that was true.

Its not about the number of roads, its the ability of those roads to support high volumes of traffic.

At last you finally got it (it's only taken a year  the issue is the lack of road capacity to the Maze and no plans or budget to expand it.

YOU HAVE ALREADY AGREED ON THIS THREAD that the issue of public transport to the maze is of no importance. The vast vast majority of fans travelling to any new stadium anywhere in NI will do so by car.

Sorry I've agreed nothing of the sort. I said that the majority of people using the Maze will HAVE TO use cars. That doesn't mean that public transport isn't an issue.

Donagh's right the GAA culture is to support your team wherever they play. Our epic journeys to and especially from Clones make the journey to the maze look like a sunday stroll in comparison.

Aye the lads that travel to Azerbijan, or the Carribean or the US or Estonia (to name a few recent trips) are all worried about travelling a few miles to watch their team.  You know full well that the distance to/from the Maze is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

Sorry, Sammy. The quesition of neutrality was answered by myself only a few posts ago. I explained to you why most GAA fans would perceived the Maze as a safe neutral space. My answer was an exact  repetition of my replies to you on the same question over the last few years, so not only has the question been answered in this thread, it was answered a long time ago. Perhaps you can explain why you continually ignore the existence of answers given.

You keep repeating the same answer about your PERCEPTION but you refuse to answer the question about the REALITY. A bit like your answer about the amazing moveable stands. 

Anyway I'm away to work. I'll check back later when I get a minute.

[Deal_Me_In]

Sammy

The issue of access to the maze site will not be an issue. Although there are no plans (at the min) for an access road from the motorway, one will need to be developed. If the Maze is never used for a multi sports stadium and is used for development for 1000 odd houses, do you think that an access road isn't going to be developed for these people to access the main route in/out Belfast (granted the developers will have to pay a substantial part of the costs but it will still be developed) Similarily if the poposed stadium is built an access road will be built due to necessity even if there are none proposed by the road service at the min.

[his holiness nb]

Guys, its a bit off topic, but how in the hell do some of you have time to go into such detail so regularly?

I can only imagine that EG and Sammy for example, are members of other boards also, they are hardly going to have this as their no1 site given their feelings for the GAA.
This isnt an insult or anything, I'm genuinely interested as to how you make the time.

[SammyG]

Sammy

The issue of access to the maze site will not be an issue. Although there are no plans (at the min) for an access road from the motorway, one will need to be developed. If the Maze is never used for a multi sports stadium and is used for development for 1000 odd houses, do you think that an access road isn't going to be developed for these people to access the main route in/out Belfast (granted the developers will have to pay a substantial part of the costs but it will still be developed) Similarily if the poposed stadium is built an access road will be built due to necessity even if there are none proposed by the road service at the min.

Simply saying it will be built doesn't actually fix the issues.

How will it be built (the road service have said they won't be doing it and don't have the extra capacity required to fit it in) and who will pay for it (it is not budgetted in either the general roads budget or the Maze stadium budget)? These questions have been asked in great detail, to the Roads Service, the SIB, the Maze Advisory Panel, the UK Parliament and the Assembly and none of them have been able to answer either of these questions. Also the current published Maze plan doesn't mention any new motorway junction/expanded road capacity.

I do think it's funny that people who wouldn't normally trust a DUPer to wsh their car, are willing to take on trust that the issues at the Maze will be resolved, just because Poots says so.

[SammyG]

Guys, its a bit off topic, but how in the hell do some of you have time to go into such detail so regularly?

Have a look at the posting times. Most of the detailed answers are at 10 or 11 at night. As sad as it is the Maze is one of my highest priority 'leisure time' issues. I spend far too much time, either on message boards or contacting MLAs/MPs/Councillors or making freedom of information requests or reading studies from other stadia or contacting designers/planners etc etc etc. If this goes ahead it will be the end of football in NI, within 5 years, so any time spent stopping it will be well spent, in my opinion.

[Uladh]

If this goes ahead it will be the end of football in NI, within 5 years

Its win win then!