Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[Evil Genius]

Anyone knows that a stadium at the Maze is the answer, with convenient access to mhe motorway and rail links and a 42,000 capacity could attract Irish Rugby internationals as well as GAA AI Quarter Finals etc, not to mention rock concerts, Papal Visits, Special Olympics and the like

Tell me, Tony, do you honestly believe all the crap you post, or is it that you hope it will somehow magically come true if you repeat it often enough?

The Maze has no access to the Motorway, nor does it have any train links. The former would have to be built at a cost of millions. NIR has no plans, budget or intention of building a rail link and even if it did, the deployment of every single train they possess could carry not much more than 1,000 passengers per hour along a single route.

The IRFU will only stage a maximum of three or four minor internationals per year (Italy, Romania, Canada etc) outside of the new Lansdowne, and these will need to be shared equally with the redeveloped Thomond Park.

I have no idea how many AI Quarter Finals the GAA would consider staging in Ulster each year, but what would be wrong with Clones? It's present capacity is not much less than the Maze, it has already been built using GAA funds, there are proposals to extend it (afaik) and it has the added bonus of being VAT-free and without any rent needing to be paid to the British Government, either.

As for rock concerts, no promoter has yet expressed the slightest interest in the Maze, nor is any likely to, since 42,000 is too big for the average band, but too small for the really big groups like U2, who only ever feature Slane etc on the infrequent occasions they stage gigs in Ireland.

As for the Special Olympics, these are held once every four years. Ireland hosted the last one in 2003. I doubt if Ireland can expect to host them a second time before the 22nd Century.

And as for your prospective Papal Visit, Ireland can expect one of these an average of every 1600 years (if past history is anything to go by). Personally, I would have no objection whatever to His Holiness revisiting; however, I cannot believe that 42,000 would be nearly enough to accommodate all those wishing to see him.

[his holiness nb]

Who is going to build a pub or hotel that will only be used for a couple of hours, 6 or 8 times a year?

6-8 times just? Between NI Internationals, freindlies, soccer Cup finals, Rugby games, GAA matches, surely more than 6-8? 
The soccer alone would have more than that!
If a stadium is built there, facilities will be built around it. I have yet to see a stadium built in the western world, a bit out of the way, that wasnt followed by outside investment into local facilities, including housing & appartments, this would be a great attraction to many young men looking for a place to live.
There are too many opportunists out there to prevent this from happening.
You paint a picture of a lone stadium with tumbleweeds blowing past it most of the year, this simply wont happen.

[Evil Genius]

Would you not think that if a stadium was built someone might think of building hotels, pubs restaurants nearby?
Not that much of a stretch of the imagination.
As they say, if you build it, they will come  

"If you build it, people will come".

Somehow, I hardly think a work of fiction about Baseball, featuring the ghosts of the long dead members of the Chicago White Sox, is really a justification for spending over £100 million of taxpayers money on a site which has a development value of half a billion pounds for housing.

After all, in the 18 years since "Field of Dreams" originally came out, no-one has thought to build a baseball stadium in a Mid-West cornfield yet, which suggests that it's not such a good idea. In fact, even the original movie set built at the time has failed to take off:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_of_Dreams_%28Dubuque_County%2C_Iowa%29

P.S. When they brought out Superman, did you "really believe a man can fly"? Because I'm sorry to disillusion you, but that was fiction, too, along with Star Wars, Mary Poppins and the idea that it was the Americans who won the Second World War...

[SammyG]

Who is going to build a pub or hotel that will only be used for a couple of hours, 6 or 8 times a year?

6-8 times just? Between NI Internationals, freindlies, soccer Cup finals, Rugby games, GAA matches, surely more than 6-8? 
The soccer alone would have more than that!

NI will use the stadium 3 to 4 times a year, 1 Irish Cup Final, no rugby matches (they've already said numerous times that they won't be using it and are renovating Ravenhill), so that gives us either 4 or 5. The GAA have refused to say if or when they'll use the stadium but looking at the attendance figures (from snatters post) I can't see more than a couple of matches a year maybe 3 if we're being generous and they don't mind pissing the county grounds off. So that gives us a total of 6 to 8.

If a stadium is built there, facilities will be built around it. I have yet to see a stadium built in the western world, a bit out of the way, that wasnt followed by outside investment into local facilities, including housing & appartments, this would be a great attraction to many young men looking for a place to live.

Can you give me some examples of these 'out of the way' stadia? Because your info completely contradicts all of the tons of independent research that has been carried out.

There are too many opportunists out there to prevent this from happening.
You paint a picture of a lone stadium with tumbleweeds blowing past it most of the year, this simply wont happen.

Why do you think it won't happen? It happened in Istanbul, it happened at the Madjedski in Reading, it happened to Giants Stadium in New Jersey, why do you think the Maze will be different to every other stadium in the world?

[his holiness nb]

Somehow, I hardly think a work of fiction about Baseball, featuring the ghosts of the long dead members of the Chicago White Sox, is really a justification for spending over £100 million of taxpayers money on a site which has a development value of half a billion pounds for housing.

P.S. When they brought out Superman, did you "really believe a man can fly"? Because I'm sorry to disillusion you, but that was fiction, too, along with Star Wars, Mary Poppins and the idea that it was the Americans who won the Second World War...

EG, you are some man to cry about people "playing the ball not the man"
Thats a very childish post and very very patronising, and make you look like a p***k.

Read my post without the quote from the movie, its a very straightforward and logical point.

[his holiness nb]

Why do you think it won't happen? It happened in Istanbul, it happened at the Madjedski in Reading, it happened to Giants Stadium in New Jersey, why do you think the Maze will be different to every other stadium in the world?

Do you mean every other stadium in the world or just the 3 you mentioned?   

Are you honestly saying you are sure that nobody will build hotels, pubs, housing etc around this stadium?

If so provide me written examples from every single possible investor saying they wouldnt.
Otherwise feck off asking for proof / examples for every single post you disagree with 

[SammyG]

Why do you think it won't happen? It happened in Istanbul, it happened at the Madjedski in Reading, it happened to Giants Stadium in New Jersey, why do you think the Maze will be different to every other stadium in the world?

Do you mean every other stadium in the world or just the 3 you mentioned?   

Are you honestly saying you are sure that nobody will build hotels, pubs, housing etc around this stadium?

If so provide me written examples from every single possible investor saying they wouldnt.
Otherwise feck off asking for proof / examples for every single post you disagree with 

Sorry HB I wasn't trying to be awkward, it was a genuine question. You said you'd been to 'out of the way' stadia and they all had hotels, bars etc. and I just wanted to know where they were as I've never heard of them. The 3 I quoted were examples that I've either been to or (in the case of Istanbul) had mates go to and none of them have any facilities whatsoever. I'm not aware of any other Western stadia that are out of the way.

[Evil Genius]

Somehow, I hardly think a work of fiction about Baseball, featuring the ghosts of the long dead members of the Chicago White Sox, is really a justification for spending over £100 million of taxpayers money on a site which has a development value of half a billion pounds for housing.

P.S. When they brought out Superman, did you "really believe a man can fly"? Because I'm sorry to disillusion you, but that was fiction, too, along with Star Wars, Mary Poppins and the idea that it was the Americans who won the Second World War...

EG, you are some man to cry about people "playing the ball not the man"
Thats a very childish post and very very patronising, and make you look like a p***k.

Read my post without the quote from the movie, its a very straightforward and logical point.

I was challenging you assumption (albeit in a sarcastic manner) that just because someone builds a stadium in a remote location, other people will come along and build ancilliary facilities.
This simply is not so, as Sammy carefully pointed out with examples, in his reply to your post.

Therefore, if you are going to make a bland assertion of this type, why don't you supply some examples, comparable to the Maze proposal, of where this has happened.

And while you're pondering, consider the fact that Durnien is proposing to raise the capital for a city-centre stadium, to be re-paid out of operating revenue, precisely because the other amenities are already there.

In the end, developers deal in reality, movie makers deal in fiction.

[stiffler]

And as for your prospective Papal Visit, Ireland can expect one of these an average of every 1600 years (if past history is anything to go by). Personally, I would have no objection whatever to His Holiness revisiting; however, I cannot believe that 42,000 would be nearly enough to accommodate all those wishing to see him.

The Pope's next visit is on the horizon, it will not be an average of every 1600 years i can assure you. also, at the likes of concerts, public addresses etc., there is a stage erected on the pitch, with standing allowed on the pitch. this will significantly increase the attendance to over 50,000. Im sure this is an ideal place to attract the biggest and most popular bands in the world.

The maze stadium location is not too far away from Moira and Lisburn train stations. This is ideal in that fans coming from Belfast direction can access the stadium via Lisburn, and fans coming from Lurgan, Portadown and Newry can access from the Moira drop off point.

[SammyG]

The maze stadium location is not too far away from Moira and Lisburn train stations. This is ideal in that fans coming from Belfast direction can access the stadium via Lisburn, and fans coming from Lurgan, Portadown and Newry can access from the Moira drop off point.

Firstly what do you consider 'not too far away' (I make it about 4.5 miles from Lisburn station and nearly 6 miles form Moira) and secondly what is the capacity and throughput of the two stations you mentioned?

[T Fearon]

FFS The Maze is the obvious location. An M1 turnoff can be easily constructed and the Moira to Lisburn railway line can be comparatively easily re arranged to accommodate a stop as well. Compare this to the mayhem in Belfast,getting to the stadium, getting way from it, residents groups (as is the case with Croker) moaning about everything, and a smaller stadium that will miss out on big Rugby and GAA crowds and will have to make do with 5 or 6000 soccer fans when the North of Ireland team fails to score a goal for three years.

There is no argument,logical sensible economical to site this in Belfast. But then you could say the same for the continued partition of this island I suppose.

At the end of the day, the three main Sporting bodies have agreed on the Maze. This unanimous agreement will not be replicated on any site in Belfast so as I said before get the bulldozers down the M1 pronto and fcuk the whingers

[stiffler]

The maze stadium location is not too far away from Moira and Lisburn train stations. This is ideal in that fans coming from Belfast direction can access the stadium via Lisburn, and fans coming from Lurgan, Portadown and Newry can access from the Moira drop off point.

Firstly what do you consider 'not too far away' and secondly what is the capacity and throughput of the two stations you mentioned?

Well, Moira to Lisburn is 10miles to your talking an average 5miles. Wouldnt be too hard to put on a shuttle service for that distance. Wouldnt be too sure on capacity and throughput, im no trainspotter, but theres plenty of room for expansion at the Moira location for a start.


Also the maze location is easy reach from the International Airport, where most International fans would be arriving into Ireland.

Is there anything there that you disagree with Sammy?

[his holiness nb]

You said you'd been to 'out of the way' stadia and they all had hotels, bars etc.

Sammy, with respect, read the post again 

[SammyG]

You said you'd been to 'out of the way' stadia and they all had hotels, bars etc.

Sammy, with respect, read the post again 

I've read it and I'm none the wiser.

[SammyG]

FFS The Maze is the obvious location.

Some bedtime reading for Tony and stiffler regarding transport capacity and costs.

Transport

"Roads Service is already spending £30-50million upgrading roads in the area whether the stadium goes ahead or not. It isn't an extra cost"

Tony Whitehead, SIB

The Belfast Metropolitan Transport Plan (BMTP) and The Regional Strategic Transport Network Transport Plan (RSTNTP) set out what will be needed and what is desired for transport in the Greater Belfast area. Both focus on the need for more integrated transport and for the need for people to have more travel options, e.g. walking and cycle routes.

What's transport like to Belfast?

The M1, M2, M3, M5 and major 'A roads' all meet in central Belfast. All rail lines lead to Belfast. More bus routes facilitate Belfast than anywhere else in Northern Ireland. Two airports and the sea port also serve the city. Belfast truly is the transport hub for Northern Ireland.

And to the Maze?

The Maze was a good location for a prison. In a rural location, 3km from the nearest city, it lies beside the M1 but has no junction onto it. With no rail link (and none planned) it will rely on visitors coming by car or coach and the need for a junction to be added.



How much will transport upgrades cost?

Any junction will cost around £20million and is not included in the current Roads Service construction plans.Tony Whitehead also said that a link road was to be constructed, which would enable greater access to the site from the North West. Again, this road is only dependent on private development in the area and "(private) developers will be responsible for funding the scheme either in full or in a very substantial part". This is estimated at £11.8million and the cost will have to be met by the developer.

For a stadium at the Maze then, additional road infrastructure will cost at least another £30million – is this to be added to the £85million that it is costing so far taking the cost beyond £115million? Roads Service is not spending this money already as Mr. Whitehead claimed. Also, these roads costs are only estimates at a 2003 level – the actual cost may be much higher by the time development starts in 2007.

In contrast, proposed locations in Belfast are already well served by road, rail and bus. The City Airport is 1km from the Titanic Quarter; 2km from Maysfield and Ormeau Park; and approximately 4km from the North Foreshore.

The Port of Belfast is even closer as are rail and bus interchanges. Any transport upgrades for Belfast already have budgets allocated, including the widening of the Sydenham Bypass to three lanes in either direction, making that site even more plausible.

How will we get to the Maze?

The Regional Development Strategy states that in 1999, 30% of the population did not have a car – with public transport non-existent to the Maze, how are any of these people supposed to get there?

It is unlikely that public transport will bring people to the Maze without going via Belfast or other neighbouring transport hubs. Will buses depart from the Maze stadium after a midweek match to the furthest corners of the province? If people have to connect via Belfast etc, it may be too late to get home if they live far away.

The Government has highlighted the need for greater access to major facilities for pedestrians and cyclists. These would exist in Belfast but it is very hard to see how pedestrians will access the Maze site without a long journey beforehand.

Even if public transport is arranged to the Maze, it cannot get 40,000 people to a single site outside Belfast. With trains running 2-3km away, scores of buses would be needed to take fans to the stadium site. Add these to the thousands trying to get into the site in cars and mass congestion is sure to follow. Leaving afterwards will be a similar nightmare and visions of mile long queues of cars can evoke the 'tail-gate' culture at out-of-town US stadiums.

Government transport policy actively encourages alternatives to private car use. The new stadium proposal runs contrary to this.

'But it's only the same distance as Trafalgar Square is to Wembley!'

The major difference is that Wembley is not in a rural location with one main road in and one out. It is well served by multiple road, rail and bus routes. London is a large metropolis with a long history of staging major events and handling huge volumes of traffic and people. Few cities in the world can cope with events such as the Olympics, but London's recent successful tender highlights it's preeminence amongst cities globally. To compare a regional city is facetious.

As for Wembley, if the example is being given by Government, why aren't we getting the same level of public transport investment?

To facilitate the journeys of spectators, £70m is being invested to ensure visitors to Wembley can move smoothly and safely to and from the stations. There will be 100 trains moving 37,500 people per hour on event days.

The Government is not planning for this here. The RSNTP allocates £10.1million for inter city bus routes until 2015. This is for all of Northern Ireland yet it is only a fraction of the money being spent to bring 21st Century public transport to the new stadium at Wembley.