Video in Good Shepherd Chapel - Niamh Horan

[Hardy]

In fairness though Jimmy Savile wasn't a cleric and he abused more for longer!

Yep - another (multi)institutional cover-up. The same as Smyth, if Savile hadn't been protected and facilitated by powerful institutions and people high up in them, he would have been caught and stopped decades ago.

[Hardy]

Hardy I agree a lot with you say but in my mind perpetrating these acts on any child hearing them cry, scream, doing indescribable inhumane acts on them, seeing the fear in their eyes and then going back and doing it again and again is equally as damming and sick as those who covered it up.

That's true on a visceral level. But (forgive the invocation of Godwin and I know it's not a moral equivalent, so just for illustration ...) Hitler never gassed a single Jew.

[Orior]

The last two comments by JC and Scull could also have been said by priests. I have never heard any clergyman say outright that he condoned the action of the abusers or said anything to me that would suggest an abuser should be facilitated.

So at a ground level I have immense respect for catholic clergymen. This is backed up by the sacrafice that they made in their lives. Compare Gerry Conlon to a priest. People feel sorry for Gerry and the years he has lost. But a priest gives up the natural urge to date girls, to marry, to raise children. Why? He does it because of his love for God and his devotion to help people like you and me.

I acknowledge that the whole setup of the Church also attracted men who were not interested in girls. But I hope they have addressed that now.

Perhaps the above goes some way to explain my desire to defend the Church.

I think I need that one explained to me a bit more Orion?

The rest of your post is treading a fine line in terms of a gay man also being a paedophile and is a lazy and incorrect assumption.

What would be wrong with having gay priests as a matter of interest?

In this day and age, nothing is wrong with having gay priests. In fact I know at least one, and I believe he celebate, but wouldnt know for sure! In fact, two if you add thon fella in Larne who appointed himself bishop.

Do you all recall that in the 1950's and 1960's homosexuality was a criminal offence? So I reckon that some young Irishmen may have joined the priesthood out of guilt, or maybe just to hide. Hence it had a higher than normal density of gays. Perhaps the same applied to Nuns. But there are still a lot of good, dedicated, honest, devout and holy priests, who are being tarred with a rather large brush. I assume Hardy doesnt have an uncle in the priesthood.

JC, you said you werent aware of things that were going on. I'm suggesting that many priests were in the same boat.

[foxcommander]

While it's great looking back in hindsight to the things that went on and now how we view them as disgraceful I think a lot of you have forgotten about the culture at the time.

Scandals were hidden, broken homes held together due to no divorces, affairs were hushed, alcoholism wasnt mentioned, kids with learning difficulties were just branded stupid and left in the back of the classrooms to rot etc....
There was still a hint of shame for some regarding their behaviour or situations which sometimes lent itself to things being swept under the carpet.

The situation with the church fell into this category. Would you let an institution fall due to the actions of a few? Of course you would try to fix it or patch over it...wasn't that the exact same thing as the banking crisis not so long ago?

[muppet]

While it's great looking back in hindsight to the things that went on and now how we view them as disgraceful I think a lot of you have forgotten about the culture at the time.

Scandals were hidden, broken homes held together due to no divorces, affairs were hushed, alcoholism wasnt mentioned, kids with learning difficulties were just branded stupid and left in the back of the classrooms to rot etc....
There was still a hint of shame for some regarding their behaviour or situations which sometimes lent itself to things being swept under the carpet.

The situation with the church fell into this category. Would you let an institution fall due to the actions of a few? Of course you would try to fix it or patch over it...wasn't that the exact same thing as the banking crisis not so long ago?

Fox, this is exactly the problem. The Church is not trying to fix it, it is in complete denial. Just like the Bankers were. It will end the same way if The Vatican and Cardinals etc don't wise up.

[Hardy]

I assume Hardy doesnt have an uncle in the priesthood.

WTF does that have to do with anything? And what have I said about priests that's upset you?

I reckon that some young Irishmen may have joined the priesthood out of guilt, or maybe just to hide. Hence it had a higher than normal density of gays.

What does this have to do with paedophilia among priests, which I assume is your subject?

[foxcommander]

While it's great looking back in hindsight to the things that went on and now how we view them as disgraceful I think a lot of you have forgotten about the culture at the time.

Scandals were hidden, broken homes held together due to no divorces, affairs were hushed, alcoholism wasnt mentioned, kids with learning difficulties were just branded stupid and left in the back of the classrooms to rot etc....
There was still a hint of shame for some regarding their behaviour or situations which sometimes lent itself to things being swept under the carpet.

The situation with the church fell into this category. Would you let an institution fall due to the actions of a few? Of course you would try to fix it or patch over it...wasn't that the exact same thing as the banking crisis not so long ago?

Fox, this is exactly the problem. The Church is not trying to fix it, it is in complete denial. Just like the Bankers were. It will end the same way if The Vatican and Cardinals etc don't wise up.

Do you think the banking institutions have learned their lesson? I don't see any of the auditing firms that missed this completely getting hung out to dry or brought to proper justice.

That will happen again, no doubt. For now we live and will continue to suffer from the shit for generations to come.

As for the church, what is it that you want? Brady's head on a pike? Will that fix all?
Not sure retrospectively you can do about the magdelene sisters or the likes of Brendan Smyth. Perhaps if we have a day of mourning - will that solve it?

[T Fearon]

OFfaly, happy to answer your reasonable question. I believe the Church has badly mishandled the problem of child abuse, but not with any evil intent.Interesting when Bishop Mc Areavey (uncle of John) took a sabbatical recently he returned and admitted he personally needed a lot of time to appreciate the hurt of child abuse victims.

Human beings will always I feel try to protect the reputation of their institutions, look at the lengths the British Govt has gone to with On the Run letters etc. This is fact.

I cannot understand the victimization of Cardinal Brady for a dire episode he was forced into as a young priest 40 years ago, not of his making.Obviously he hadn't the benefit of hindsight we all have now.

I believe if questions need to be asked of Brady then questions need to be asked of the young boys parents.Should any caring parents, even in the mid 70s not have probed why they were bringing their children to an interview with a priest?

At the end of the day I believe that the only  people responsible for paedophilia are paedophiles.If the Police believe anyone else has a case to answer, even if it's the Pope, then they should arrest him.

[muppet]

While it's great looking back in hindsight to the things that went on and now how we view them as disgraceful I think a lot of you have forgotten about the culture at the time.

Scandals were hidden, broken homes held together due to no divorces, affairs were hushed, alcoholism wasnt mentioned, kids with learning difficulties were just branded stupid and left in the back of the classrooms to rot etc....
There was still a hint of shame for some regarding their behaviour or situations which sometimes lent itself to things being swept under the carpet.

The situation with the church fell into this category. Would you let an institution fall due to the actions of a few? Of course you would try to fix it or patch over it...wasn't that the exact same thing as the banking crisis not so long ago?

Fox, this is exactly the problem. The Church is not trying to fix it, it is in complete denial. Just like the Bankers were. It will end the same way if The Vatican and Cardinals etc don't wise up.

Do you think the banking institutions have learned their lesson? I don't see any of the auditing firms that missed this completely getting hung out to dry or brought to proper justice.

That will happen again, no doubt. For now we live and will continue to suffer from the shit for generations to come.

As for the church, what is it that you want?

I want the Vatican to hand over all records of abuse allegations to the various states and instruct all Orders to fully cooperate with local agencies. I want an end to the wall of secrecy, official secrecy, ordered by the then Cardinal Ratzinger. I want them to accept full responsibly and an end to the weasel excuses that local Churches are responsible.

There is hardly a more innately hierarchical organisation on earth. They have the ultimate sanction, punishment before and after death. Yet they claim their operatives act without any control?

Brady's head on a pike?

Brady should stand down and admit his serious failing of those entrusted to the care of the Church.

Will that fix all?

It would be a start on the road to redemption. Even Fianna Fáil apologised.

Not sure retrospectively you can do about the magdelene sisters or the likes of Brendan Smyth. Perhaps if we have a day of mourning - will that solve it?

Trivialising the suffering doesn't add to your argument.

[muppet]

OFfaly, happy to answer your reasonable question. I believe the Church has badly mishandled the problem of child abuse, but not with any evil intent.Interesting when Bishop Mc Areavey (uncle of John) took a sabbatical recently he returned and admitted he personally needed a lot of time to appreciate the hurt of child abuse victims.

Human beings will always I feel try to protect the reputation of their institutions, look at the lengths the British Govt has gone to with On the Run letters etc. This is fact.

I cannot understand the victimization of Cardinal Brady for a dire episode he was forced into as a young priest 40 years ago, not of his making.Obviously he hadn't the benefit of hindsight we all have now.

I believe if questions need to be asked of Brady then questions need to be asked of the young boys parents.Should any caring parents, even in the mid 70s not have probed why they were bringing their children to an interview with a priest?

At the end of the day I believe that the only  people responsible for paedophilia are paedophiles.If the Police believe anyone else has a case to answer, even if it's the Pope, then they should arrest him.

Unbelievable.

[muppet]

I wonder which question he'll answer ...

Anyone fancy opening a book on it?

AZ question 40/1
Muppet's Q 50/1
Straw Man comparison with British Government 2/1
Blame anti-Catholics Evens
Blame IFA 5/1
Blame Queen 6/1
Blame U2 8/1
Blame Mickey Harte 4/1
Blame Southern Government 12/1
Blame Southern Irish Media 14/1

Paying out on Straw Man comparison with British Government but peeved I missed Tony blaming the parents of victims. Should have seen that coming.

[foxcommander]

It would be a start on the road to redemption. Even Fianna Fáil apologised.

You know Fianna Fail didn't mean it....I thought the church already apologised. How many more times can they do the same thats going to make any difference?

[muppet]

It would be a start on the road to redemption. Even Fianna Fáil apologised.

You know Fianna Fail didn't mean it....I thought the church already apologised. How many more times can they do the same thats going to make any difference?

They have not even started to comprehend cooperation yet. I am hoping this Pope is the man to undo all of the damage of his predecessors and in particular his immediate predecessor.

[T Fearon]

Are there nor several priests locked up? Comparisons with the British Govt are very valid. To mention just one incident, they will nor co operate with any Investligation into the Dublin bombings? Where were the mass protests on the streets of Dublin during the Queen's visit in 2011?

[muppet]

Are there nor several priests locked up? Comparisons with the British Govt are very valid. To mention just one incident, they will nor co operate with any Investligation into the Dublin bombings? Where were the mass protests on the streets of Dublin during the Queen's visit in 2011?

But Tony you no doubt blame the parents of the victims?