Tyrone v Down - Sun 18th May, Omagh

[ONeill]

Aye I was reading there that an hour or so the Cavan game the Dungannon boys walked out in protest over a club decision and team selection, leaving Tyrone with less than 15 players. They pulled a few lads from the crowd.

Cavan went on to win the AI. The next year Tyrone ran them to a point.

[orangeman]

Kerry stopped winning AIs for a while. So too Cork ( an awful long while the one came in 2010 ). Meath stopped too.

Since 2008,  it's been Tyrone's turn - and it's not because of the manager Mickey Harte. Mickey and his backroom team have been simply brilliant. Had Harte not been around who knows, Tyrone might not have won any Sam Maguire cups. Tyrone were a brilliant outfit - but they had a brilliant manager - both complimented each other. The brilliant team is gone. The brilliant manager who is making the best of what he has, ( a national league final one point defeat to Dublin and a semi final loss to Mayo in 2013 is a mighty fine return having begun to rebuild after the hammering in 2012 in Killarney and the final break up of one of the finest teams to play football ) but the brilliant manager remains.

Harte is still keeping Tyrone at the top table and by his managerial brilliance, will continue to do so. Tyrone fans who are critical of Harte, here's some advice ( other counties have learnt the hard way ) - be careful for what you wish for.
Most other counties would give their right arm and leg to have Harte manage them.

[SkillfulBill]

Quote from: hardstation on Today at 11:52:48 AM
A new voice and fresh ideas might pave the way for Tyrone to re-enter the top tier.

Fair enough - any suggestions?

I guarantee you if Tyrone are to win another All Ireland in the next five years the only way they'll do it is with Mickey Harte at the helm.

I'm very much in the AZOffaly camp. They mightn't even have won one in the luast 11 years if he hadn't been the manager.

This blind homage to Mickey is comical have people stopped to think the reason mickey has won so many AI's. Is it possible that it is more to do with the players he had available to him than any magical management ability he may have. Have a look at his record.

Minor manager 1991- 1998

Ulster titles won 93,97,98
AI's lost 97
AI's won 98

U21 manager 1999 - 2002
Ulster titles won 00,01, 02
AI's won 00,01

Senior manager 2003 - 13
Ulster won 03,07,09,10
AI's won 03,05,08

Mickey essentially has won all of his titles with one group of exceptional players. The vast bulk of these players have retired. Lets not forget that Art and mckenna had already made the break through by winning Tyrones first National Title in 02 with a div 1 win and whos to say AI success would not have followed. I dont buy into the idea that Harte is the only manager that can progress Tyrone towards another AI win in fact if you take his team selection of sunday into account I would say he may hinder their chances.

Yes, Mickey had good players but it was him who bought them through from 16/17 years of age. He moulded that bunch of young lads from talented young players into multiple All Ireland champions at all grades. Any attempt to down play that achievement is unfair and shows a lack of appreciation of what's involved in managing a group of young players. Do people say Micko was just an average manager of great players? Was Alex Ferguson "lucky" the class of 92 just came along? Young players all over Ireland don't fulfil their potential yet, Mickey managed to guide a bunch of lads (through all sorts of tragedies) to not only fulfil their own individual potential but to collectively become a great team. I for one will always appreciate that achievement regardless of what happens this year or next.

That is the sentimental response i would have expected. I would not try to down play Mickey's ability to get the best from that bunch of exceptional talent. I would however question his ability to do the same with another set of players who he has not the same connection to. No one on here has yet to give a resonable rational to sundays team selection or addressed his failure to convert a number of AI minor title winning teams of 04,08 and 10 into a team with AI credentials.

2013   Mayo
2012   Dublin
2011   Tipperary
2010   Tyrone
2009   Armagh
2008   Tyrone
2007   Galway
2006   Roscommon
2005   Down
2004   Tyrone
2003   Laois
2002   Derry
2001   Tyrone
2000   Cork
1999   Down
1998   Tyrone
1997   Laois
1996   Laois

So the list of AI winning minor teams since 1996 - how many of these counties have gone on to win Senior All Irelands? Only 2 other counties who have won minor championships have gone on to win senior All Irelands, it's no guarantee for success. In that time, under Mickey, Tyrone has won 3.

8 of the starting team in 2008 didn't start the 2003 final, so to say Mickey couldn't work with different players is just nonsense.

I have my problems with some of the selections but I'm happy to admit that the management see more of the team than I do and are most likely looking at August with this squad rather than May. I fully expect a much better Tyrone on Saturday night, Mickey has a decent record in replays.

The surprising thing about your list is how consistant Tyrone have been at winning minor titles in that period. The point is not that minor success in any one year guarantees senior titles but a sustained period of success should give you a pool of players who can give you the bases of an AI winning side. Mickey was able to do this with the 97/98 minor side as his base. In 08 the same base was there and a number of the 01 and 04 sides where added. What has happened with the 04/08 and 10 base ?

[BennyHarp]

He's won All Irelands with 97/98 teams and then again with 01/04 vintage. So he's proved he can do it - twice! No other manager in Ireland has achieved that in recent years. Who is your suggestion to take over if Harte moves on?

[SkillfulBill]

He's won All Irelands with 97/98 teams and then again with 01/04 vintage. So he's proved he can do it - twice! No other manager in Ireland has achieved that in recent years. Who is your suggestion to take over if Harte moves on?

97/98 minor team was the base for 03/05 and 08. The 97/98 teams contained the golden generation.  01/04/08 and 10 have not fulfilled their potential under Mickey. After the 97/98 players faded the success has faded with it. O Rourke or McIvor/Gormely would be my preferance to take over but I am sure there would be a long list of suitable people interested given the talent and resources available within the county.

[rrhf]

Aye I was reading there that an hour or so the Cavan game the Dungannon boys walked out in protest over a club decision and team selection, leaving Tyrone with less than 15 players. They pulled a few lads from the crowd.

Cavan went on to win the AI. The next year Tyrone ran them to a point.

In that era did Tyrone wear the colours of the county champions?

[Redhand Santa]

He's won All Irelands with 97/98 teams and then again with 01/04 vintage. So he's proved he can do it - twice! No other manager in Ireland has achieved that in recent years. Who is your suggestion to take over if Harte moves on?

97/98 minor team was the base for 03/05 and 08. The 97/98 teams contained the golden generation.  01/04/08 and 10 have not fulfilled their potential under Mickey. After the 97/98 players faded the success has faded with it. O Rourke or McIvor/Gormely would be my preferance to take over but I am sure there would be a long list of suitable people interested given the talent and resources available within the county.

The 1997/98 teams were great but your argument does not stack up. In the 2008 All Ireland final just 5 of the 97/98 team started. So 2/3's of the team were made up of players that didn't play on it. It would have been 11 only for the fact that John Devine was unavailable. I think 4 players played from the 2001 minor team in the 08 final which is the same number of outfield players as the 1997/98 team. But sure believe what you want to. In a few years time some of the people will forget their criticism of Harte and be begging for him to come back.

[Brick Tamlin]

Whats it gonna be like on here when an average/medicore side like Down beat Tyrone on Saturday evening.
I wonder would any credit be due.

[BennyHarp]

He's won All Irelands with 97/98 teams and then again with 01/04 vintage. So he's proved he can do it - twice! No other manager in Ireland has achieved that in recent years. Who is your suggestion to take over if Harte moves on?

97/98 minor team was the base for 03/05 and 08. The 97/98 teams contained the golden generation.  01/04/08 and 10 have not fulfilled their potential under Mickey. After the 97/98 players faded the success has faded with it. O Rourke or McIvor/Gormely would be my preferance to take over but I am sure there would be a long list of suitable people interested given the talent and resources available within the county.

The 1997/98 teams were great but your argument does not stack up. In the 2008 All Ireland final just 5 of the 97/98 team started. So 2/3's of the team were made up of players that didn't play on it. It would have been 11 only for the fact that John Devine was unavailable. I think 4 players played from the 2001 minor team in the 08 final which is the same number of outfield players as the 1997/98 team. But sure believe what you want to. In a few years time some of the people will forget their criticism of Harte and be begging for him to come back.

Alot of what he is saying doesnt stack up. There is 6 of the minor team from 2008 either starting or close to starting on Sunday (However, lads on here are heavily critical of at least 3 of them) and 3 of the 2010 team are there or there abouts. Bill, I would be interested to hear who else you think should be on the starting team from those panels that would turn the team into All Ireland champions?

So if you say that the 97/98 team was the base for the 2003 and maybe 2005 All Ireland wins, that gives 5 years between winning the 98 Minor and 2003 Senior All Irelands. So you would be expecting an All Ireland from the 2010 crop by 2015? Maybe getting to an All Ireland semi final by 2013 shows good progress? It is better prgress than the 98 crop acheived did under Big Art who never managed to get beyond the quarter final until Mickey took over. Remember in 2003 we also drew with Down and Derry in Ulster.

[Brick Tamlin]

Anyone know if this game will be shown live on any channel this weekend?
Will there likely be a link thrown up Saturday evening for it..streamed??

[orangeman]

Anyone know if this game will be shown live on any channel this weekend?
Will there likely be a link thrown up Saturday evening for it..streamed??

Radio Googoo or tv gaagaa

[Brick Tamlin]

??Huh
Overseas for the weekend and wil miss game but just wondering where I could watch it or even online on the laptop.

[omagh_gael]

Down lads/lassies, what's your thinking for Saturday evenings team? Will Benny start and come off or appear for 2nd half? A middle three of Benny, Ambrose and McKernan would be formidable.

[Brick Tamlin]

Cant see that happening.
Benny isn't fit for full game and probably best used as an impact sub.
Ambrose likewise and with his history of injuries would be best suited to the half forward line.
if I had to guess id say the team that started last weekend wont be far off what will start this weekend, bar one or two enforced changes through injuries or niggles picked up last week.

[PAULD123]

Can't see Benny starting. Impact sub is a new agreed role for him. The bigger debates are if Turley will start? could Dan Gordon make an appearance? How will the Johnston brothers be used?