Donegal v Down Ulster Semi June 23

[Fuzzman]

A lot of people over the last 2 years have underestimated what the Donegal juggernaut is all about until they see it in action themselves. I was at both the Cork & Kerry v Donegal last year and both sets of fans all thought they would win after a good battle. They left dismayed & wondered was it a once off.

Most people rate Mickey Harte very highly tactically and he's failed now 3 years in the trot to find a way to beat their system. He said this year that they've actually improved on last year and I think he has shown that trying to beat them at their own game doesn't work either, unless you've got top quality full forwards who can work hard & win their own ball under extreme pressure. We don't.

One chink I notice is when they push up and lose possession they are very fast to give away a free and then delay that free being taken. They go to great costs to stop the ball being hit in early and sometimes when it does then they can be opened up. I've noticed a few times when the FF goes running out to get a ball, that if someone runs in the space he leaves behind him, especially down into one corner then that can be a way for a forward to find space in the scoring zone. The conventional method of kicking a ball into the FF line and a player coming out, getting it and either turning or laying it off looks like they've got that defended down to a tee.

Also, players who are fouled by them need to show the ref they are being impeded from taking the free quick. They need to gamble and kick it off the man standing in front of him or if he's grabbed yer leg like they did v Tyrone then the player needs to somehow let the ref know and not let them get away with these small but important delaying tactics.

I would love to see the Dubs play Donegal now as it would great to see the outcome of two very different styles. I'd love to see teams use the change to the square ball rule more often. We not lamp it in there at much more rather than this hand passing back and forth around the 40 waiting for an opening that is gonna happen.

I'd love to see the stats on McFadden championship games over the last 2 years.
He seems to be getting a goal and 3 or 4 points in a lot of games.

[yellowcard]

Donegal have a pattern of destroying teams in the last 1/4 of the game.
If Down can stay in the game for 50 minutes and then score 4 quick goals, possibly they have a chance.
Nevertheless, I'll be rooting for the underdog to pull off some (ol' time aristocratic) magic in this game.

Donegal do this because once they get their noses in front, they pick teams off on the counter attack. It's pre-ordained, it's disciplined and it's very clever.

Given that they've got the edge in terms of personnel, I'd guess the only way for Down to beat Donegal is through tactical superiority, and to rigidly play our own defensive formation (even if five points down) and draw them out of their own shape. Almost the antithesis of the way football is traditionally played in Down.

Beyond that, it's a case of never, ever carry the ball into a tackle unless moving at a pace whereby any contact is going to see you tumbling into a heap,  drawing a foul, and potentially a card.

I would agree about how Donegal get a lead then sit their defensive screen back, suck you in to their web, turnover possession and then break at great speed. Therefore I think you would need to have some sort of a lead against them in the 3rd quarter to avoid this happening.

However I would take issue with the second bit: (1) Donegals system is that well honed and rehearsed that there is no way that Down can play Donegal at their own game and better it, a poor imitation would just not work (2) This traditional Down football that you talk about, I don't buy into that either. This perception that Down play this swashbuckling attacking football is not something I would buy into at all. Certainly McCartan could not be considered an attacking coach, its another myth put forward mostly by Down supporters themselves and some within the media.   

[PAULD123]

Good post by Fuzzman. McQuillen is a joke when it comes to off-the ball incidents and slowing down play. Donegal will not get him again in the championship so their delaying tactics will get punished from here in. Fuzzman is right the opposition have to be more vocal/clear about this and push the referee into punishing this offence by always trying to take quick frees (even if they aren't really going to kick it).

As for how to beat Donegal - We do to them for 70 minutes what we did to them for 40 minutes last year. Down were only a few points behind Donegal and had them pretty much pushed back. It was at least even on general play. After we conceded the second goal from a break-away the heads dropped like a bunch of schoolboys and the fight went out of them. The famous thumping ensued. What Down did was push up fast with half backs overlapping the half forwards and the shots coming from distance. On turnover the half forwards chased back to impeded attacks until the half backs could swarm back to recover their positions. basically the hard working area was between the 45's. The Down full forward line served mostly just to push the Donegal defenders back a bit. We probably hadn't the fitness to maintain that approach for 70 minutes.

Tyrone continually hit the ball into their full-forward, it's no wonder they lost. Any team doing that will be snuffed out by Donegal. The only way is to match their fitness with both sets of half forwards and half-backs working together, all defending as six half-backs then all attacking as six half forwards. Rotate full forwards with half forwards to give players rest periods. Don't look for goals, take every point available, especially when behind. Every time you get sight of the posts from 25m, shoot! Most importantly - draw the man but then always off-load before contact.

[Fuzzman]

I wondered last week, if the three players who didn't retreat far enough from Morgan's frees had blocked the shot, would the ref then have booked them?
As someone said, he had so much else to watch in near the box that he tended to forget about the free taker and the yards.

Stevie O'Neill and Sean Cava didn't seem to get a lot of shots away all day.

[J70]

I think the writing was on the wall for Down last year even before McGlynn's goal. Donegal were already three points up, streaming forward and starting to turn the screw over the previous few minutes, after Down had had plenty of the play in the first half. McGlynn's goal didn't just come out of the blue: it was very much a product of the pressure on the Down backs and the growing dominance of Donegal at midfield over the previous minutes. (The goal came when Michael Murphy gathered a midfield break and sent McGlynn through on goal. McGlynn was up the field at that moment because he was after sending Mark McHugh charging through, except McHugh elected to take his point.) It was similar to the 3rd quarter period where we won the game against Cork, except we didn't stick the ball in the net.

[PAULD123]

I don't agree with that assessment at all. before McGlynn's goal Down scored a point to make it a two point game 1-09 to 0-10. We were totally in that match to that point. McHugh broke away for a point and then from kickout Donegal claimed possession and put in McGlynn to put six between them. But even then Down came back and got a 13m free. That free would have put 5 between them with 15 minutes to go. Doyler miss-hit the free, it was blocked on the line, Donegal broke from the back two passes and McFadden knocked over a free, to make it a 7 point game. Down heads dropped and we were thumped.

But until that blocked free Down were still competitive. At 5 points Down still were well in it but the sudden turnaround from 5 points to 7 in about 5 seconds was the clincher. That was the pivotal point where the players lost their heart, everything after that was academic.

[Mourne Rover]

The evidence is that Donegal, with Lacey and McHugh fit again, are practically at full strength and looking an even more formidable side than last year, when they ultimately crushed Down. It could be argued that both of Donegal's goals were against the run of play at the time, but, as soon as they eventually got into top gear, there was no holding them.

Down are definitely fitter and better organised than in 2012, with a range of players producing noticeably improved displays, but the injury list has been cruel. While you cannot legislate for young men like McComiskey and O'Hagan deciding to try a summer in the US, the loss of Gordon, Garvey, Carr, McParland and Doyle has completely undermined our defensive plans. Ambrose is back, and Hughes may not be far away, but our resources have probably been overstretched. However, 5/1 is still a hell of a price for a Down team which is high on confidence and has nothing to lose. 

[J70]

You're obviously entitled to your opinion Paul, but I seriously doubt if many would agree that Down were still in the game at five points down had the free not been missed. And I'd put my house on Donegal going on to win that game pulling up from three points up too even without the second goal. Down had played well, yet we were still starting to stretch away (unless you think Down were going to  close that gap -I don't). Fair enough if you want to argue about the margin and Donegal running up the score, but we were always going to win that game with a few points to spare.

[Wildweasel74]

2 pts behind against Donegal is like 5pts behind to any other team, they are very hard to break down and scores in general are hard to come by

[thewobbler]

2 pts behind against Donegal is like 5pts behind to any other team, they are very hard to break down and scores in general are hard to come by

I think PaulD has the red tinted glasses on above, but this statement here is nonsense. Donegal with a two point lead are the same as every other team in the country; they're just one kick of a ball from being behind.

Donegal are good. They're even very good. But there's a lot of myths being formed about them at present.

[PAULD123]

You're obviously entitled to your opinion Paul, but I seriously doubt if many would agree that Down were still in the game at five points down had the free not been missed. And I'd put my house on Donegal going on to win that game pulling up from three points up too even without the second goal. Down had played well, yet we were still starting to stretch away (unless you think Down were going to  close that gap -I don't). Fair enough if you want to argue about the margin and Donegal running up the score, but we were always going to win that game with a few points to spare.

In fairness if you read my post I said that we were still totally in the match when we reduced it to two points (45 minutes). That was before the second goal.

I then said that it was not the goal itself but the missed 13m free that saw the players collapse and a huge margin being run up. At two points down we were still in the game and had a roughly equal share of possession. If the players hadn't thrown in the towel so quickly I believe the 5 point gap would have been too much to close but we wouldn't have been outscored 12 points to 3. 

[BluestackBoy]

2 pts behind against Donegal is like 5pts behind to any other team, they are very hard to break down and scores in general are hard to come by

I think PaulD has the red tinted glasses on above, but this statement here is nonsense. Donegal with a two point lead are the same as every other team in the country; they're just one kick of a ball from being behind.

Donegal are good. They're even very good. But there's a lot of myths being formed about them at present.

This is something I have noticed myself this year. Whether it is JMcG playin g more mind games or not I don't know but there is no doubt that if your opposition thinks you are unbeatable then the job is half done. We saw this with Westmeath against Dublin last Sunday, Kilkenny have the same thing & Kerry used to have it. Tiger Woods & Muhammad Ali were other sports people who had this unbeatable aura around them.  Opponents just stand back, admire you & take their beating. This air of invincibility is hard earned but if you have it, it makes life a lot easier.

[nrico2006]

2 pts behind against Donegal is like 5pts behind to any other team, they are very hard to break down and scores in general are hard to come by

I think PaulD has the red tinted glasses on above, but this statement here is nonsense. Donegal with a two point lead are the same as every other team in the country; they're just one kick of a ball from being behind.

Donegal are good. They're even very good. But there's a lot of myths being formed about them at present.

This is something I have noticed myself this year. Whether it is JMcG playin g more mind games or not I don't know but there is no doubt that if your opposition thinks you are unbeatable then the job is half done. We saw this with Westmeath against Dublin last Sunday, Kilkenny have the same thing & Kerry used to have it. Tiger Woods & Muhammad Ali were other sports people who had this unbeatable aura around them.  Opponents just stand back, admire you & take their beating. This air of invincibility is hard earned but if you have it, it makes life a lot easier.

I think you are right.  I can't ever remember a team that is seen as basically unbeatable in championship football, and since last year you got the feeling that Donegal were going to win no matter who they were playing and its the same this year.  It has infected the average person and its bound to have hit the minds of the opposition which as you say, half wins the battle.  Donegal seem to be the best prepared team tactically ever which has resulted in unreal levels of consistency.  The days of winning by playing the best football seem to be gone.  They seem that strong at the minute that its evident that JMcG has this team so well moulded that it is not reliant on any individual.  Each man has a job to do and if he is unavailable then another man can come in and fit into the 'system' as everyone likes to call it.  I have no doubt that if JMcG managed any one of the Division 1 teams this year he would win the All Ireland with them within 2 years.  No matter how good individuals are on the opposing team, they are snuffed out as the collective sum of the Donegal players playing to strong tactics will over power an individual (no matter how brilliant) most days. 

[Captain Obvious]

I think Donegal will settle for narrow win no need show their full hand yet. Down good enough to reach the last eight?

[Aristo 60]

Certainly