Qualifiers--there's an angry mob of losers gathering at the back door

[DJGaliv]

Thank God it's over.

This is a big problem now in the championship. A few years ago it was, great we can have a cut at one of the big boys - Tyrone/Dublin/Kerry and we might catch them on an off day. For example 10 years ago Roscommon heading up to Croker to play Kerry and giving them a fright and having a day out.

Now, it's Christ I hope we don't get a tanking. Maybe it would be better to lose to a middle of the road county like Derry and avoid the embarrassment of a thrashing. I'm a Galwayman and that's my gut feelings in this qualifier.

It seems we are heading down the path to a tiered football championship as in hurling.

[AZOffaly]

The qualifiers were sold as being a second chance for all these poor auld divils who train like dogs all year only to have it all end in 1 game in May or June. Fair enough. But what it has actually done, and was probably always intended to do, was give the big counties a safety net.

For quite a few counties, I get the impression that when they are beaten in the Provincial championship, the qualifers hold very little appeal. Certainly the first round or two. Offaly would have been better off to get promotion, give Kildare a decent game, and then go back to their clubs until the winter training again.

Instead we've had defections to go to America, hurlers being drafted into the panel in an emergency, and the mother of all beatings from Tyrone. Is that really a good thing for Offaly?

I know it's their own fault as well, but if the perception is that the Qualifers are just delaying the inevitable, what's the point other than getting the likes of Tyrone, Kildare  and a few others back in the saddle? Offaly, Wicklow, Limerick, Westmeath, Antrim, Sligo, Carlow and I daresay the likes of Clare, Waterford and Leitrim would be better off if the season ended when their hopes for a provincial title went south.

We talk about formats and more games, but if the approach to the qualifier games are anything to go by, the players from the 'developing' counties don't want more games, they want a tilit at their province, and then forget it.

[balladmaker]

For what it's worth, here's my tuppence worth ...

Break the link completely between Provincial Championships and the All Ireland.

Have the Provincial Championships as stand alone competitions, knock out, no back door. 

Have an open draw for the All Ireland, knock out, no back door.  Let the open draw remove the built in bias afforded by the Provincial Championships. 

[AZOffaly]

For what it's worth, here's my tuppence worth ...

Break the link completely between Provincial Championships and the All Ireland.

Have the Provincial Championships as stand alone competitions, knock out, no back door. 

Have an open draw for the All Ireland, knock out, no back door.  Let the open draw remove the built in bias afforded by the Provincial Championships.

I think they would say that's exactly what the situation is balladmaker. Effectively the Qualifiers are an independent competition, on an open draw basis. The Provincials only determine at what stage of the All Ireland championship you enter.

[magpie seanie]

Thank God it's over.

This is a big problem now in the championship. A few years ago it was, great we can have a cut at one of the big boys - Tyrone/Dublin/Kerry and we might catch them on an off day. For example 10 years ago Roscommon heading up to Croker to play Kerry and giving them a fright and having a day out.

Now, it's Christ I hope we don't get a tanking. Maybe it would be better to lose to a middle of the road county like Derry and avoid the embarrassment of a thrashing. I'm a Galwayman and that's my gut feelings in this qualifier.

It seems we are heading down the path to a tiered football championship as in hurling.

I wasn't on about our participation in this years championship.

[Rossfan]

For what it's worth, here's my tuppence worth ...

Break the link completely between Provincial Championships and the All Ireland.

Have the Provincial Championships as stand alone competitions, knock out, no back door. 

Have an open draw for the All Ireland, knock out, no back door.  Let the open draw remove the built in bias afforded by the Provincial Championships.

I think they would say that's exactly what the situation is balladmaker. Effectively the Qualifiers are an independent competition, on an open draw basis. The Provincials only determine at what stage of the All Ireland championship you enter.

+1.

Hard to know where to go -
A tiered championship where progress in a lower one gets you into the higher one - No NO NO will be the answer we want to play in the real All Ireland even though we haven't a hope in hell of even winning a game . Next breath "and sure we're better off out of it". Make sense of that if ye will.
Group stages round robin  - Ah sure that will hold up the Club championships and only give a load of meaning less games. But in the next breath they'll say "What teams like us need is more games , sure how can we improve being knocked out and season over before 1st July.
No matter what system comes in or remains in place -there will be crap teams who will get blown away and a few top ones who will always get to the closing stages.

Perhaps Stand alone Provincials with the Champions being top seeds.
Then an All Ireland where seeds 25- 32 play an open draw, 4 Winners join seeds 13 to 24 in an open draw, 8 winners join seeds 5 to 12 in the next round, 8 winners play each other and then join the Provincial Champions in the AIQFs.
Obviously a tightening of the Provincials time frame badly needed ( Connacht Championship with 6 (European) Counties took from 19/5 to 21/7)
By whom or how would the seedings be determined???

[snoopdog]

The qualifiers were sold as being a second chance for all these poor auld divils who train like dogs all year only to have it all end in 1 game in May or June. Fair enough. But what it has actually done, and was probably always intended to do, was give the big counties a safety net.

For quite a few counties, I get the impression that when they are beaten in the Provincial championship, the qualifers hold very little appeal. Certainly the first round or two. Offaly would have been better off to get promotion, give Kildare a decent game, and then go back to their clubs until the winter training again.

Instead we've had defections to go to America, hurlers being drafted into the panel in an emergency, and the mother of all beatings from Tyrone. Is that really a good thing for Offaly?

I know it's their own fault as well, but if the perception is that the Qualifers are just delaying the inevitable, what's the point other than getting the likes of Tyrone, Kildare  and a few others back in the saddle? Offaly, Wicklow, Limerick, Westmeath, Antrim, Sligo, Carlow and I daresay the likes of Clare, Waterford and Leitrim would be better off if the season ended when their hopes for a provincial title went south.

We talk about formats and more games, but if the approach to the qualifier games are anything to go by, the players from the 'developing' counties don't want more games, they want a tilit at their province, and then forget it.

I totally agree for the smaller counties its all about a day in the sun in their provincial  championship. The qualifiers are not attractive at all.

[Lone Shark]

I like this article by Ciarán Murphy - http://www.thescore.ie/ciaran-murphy-column-gaa-973645-Jul2013/ - and I'd agree that a big part of doing well in the qualifiers is about adjusting your expectations and adapting to the different environment. Obviously for some smaller counties playing in front of ten men and two dogs is nothing new, but for others it's a change and they struggle to get their heads around it.

What I would take from it is this - the longer the qualifiers go on, the more we see that the provincial championships have to be left alone. Provincial games mean something to pretty much every county, and any ideas that involve relegating the provincial championships to a secondary competition played in April or May as a stand alone need to be thrown out the window right now.

I'd actually go the other way of thinking - perhaps we need to have the backdoor within the provincial system? If players are motivated by the title they feel they can win, then maybe we need to put something in place that feeds into that. For example, Ulster could play three groups of three, with the group winners going into the provincial semi-final and the three runners up competing for the final spot, Munster could do the same with two groups of three and semis, Leinster could take in either London or New York for a change and do four threes, and then quarters, with Connacht replicating Munster, now that they've lost one of London or New York.

The critical issue here is that teams still get two games and if they lose their first one, they still have a chance of winning the provincial title.

I'm not saying it's perfect, I've just thought of it on the spot, but what is clear is that a backdoor into the All Ireland race is making no appeal for a lot of teams. 

[seafoid]

The qualifiers were sold as being a second chance for all these poor auld divils who train like dogs all year only to have it all end in 1 game in May or June. Fair enough. But what it has actually done, and was probably always intended to do, was give the big counties a safety net.

For quite a few counties, I get the impression that when they are beaten in the Provincial championship, the qualifers hold very little appeal. Certainly the first round or two. Offaly would have been better off to get promotion, give Kildare a decent game, and then go back to their clubs until the winter training again.

Instead we've had defections to go to America, hurlers being drafted into the panel in an emergency, and the mother of all beatings from Tyrone. Is that really a good thing for Offaly?

I know it's their own fault as well, but if the perception is that the Qualifers are just delaying the inevitable, what's the point other than getting the likes of Tyrone, Kildare  and a few others back in the saddle? Offaly, Wicklow, Limerick, Westmeath, Antrim, Sligo, Carlow and I daresay the likes of Clare, Waterford and Leitrim would be better off if the season ended when their hopes for a provincial title went south.

We talk about formats and more games, but if the approach to the qualifier games are anything to go by, the players from the 'developing' counties don't want more games, they want a tilit at their province, and then forget it.

Offaly were unlucky with the draw. Tipp followed by the Deise would have gone down better. At least you know the faithful will be back sometime. No such comfort in westmeath.

[balladmaker]

I think they would say that's exactly what the situation is balladmaker. Effectively the Qualifiers are an independent competition, on an open draw basis. The Provincials only determine at what stage of the All Ireland championship you enter.

My point is that the Provincials should have no impact on the All Ireland whatsoever due to the fact that they load All Ireland Q/Final qualification in favour of several counties each year.  The fact that they presently dictate where you enter the All Ireland series should be removed.  I can see why Kerry & Cork would be against this though.

Any All Ireland competition needs to afford each county of playing the same number of rounds  to get to the Q/Final stage, and an open draw means anyone can draw anyone.  At present, Kerry never get the chance to travel to Omagh in a first round Championship game, or Tyrone to Waterford etc. etc.

[AZOffaly]

The qualifiers were sold as being a second chance for all these poor auld divils who train like dogs all year only to have it all end in 1 game in May or June. Fair enough. But what it has actually done, and was probably always intended to do, was give the big counties a safety net.

For quite a few counties, I get the impression that when they are beaten in the Provincial championship, the qualifers hold very little appeal. Certainly the first round or two. Offaly would have been better off to get promotion, give Kildare a decent game, and then go back to their clubs until the winter training again.

Instead we've had defections to go to America, hurlers being drafted into the panel in an emergency, and the mother of all beatings from Tyrone. Is that really a good thing for Offaly?

I know it's their own fault as well, but if the perception is that the Qualifers are just delaying the inevitable, what's the point other than getting the likes of Tyrone, Kildare  and a few others back in the saddle? Offaly, Wicklow, Limerick, Westmeath, Antrim, Sligo, Carlow and I daresay the likes of Clare, Waterford and Leitrim would be better off if the season ended when their hopes for a provincial title went south.

We talk about formats and more games, but if the approach to the qualifier games are anything to go by, the players from the 'developing' counties don't want more games, they want a tilit at their province, and then forget it.

Offaly were unlucky with the draw. Tipp followed by the Deise would have gone down better. At least you know the faithful will be back sometime. No such comfort in westmeath.

I don't know if you're being patronising or not seafoid, but I think you are right. I know we'll be back, but I think when we do come back it will be via the Leinster championship. We (and a fair few other like us) just don't seem to be hardwired to see getting to round 4 of the qualifiers as a really successful season. Maybe it's ingrained in us, or maybe it's an unrealistic expectation, but every year when the grass starts to be cut, and you can see the evenings getting longer and the ground getting a bit firmer, Offaly tell themselves we can win a Leinster. When we find out that we can't, we generally speaking throw our hat at it. Probably a shocking attitude, but it seems to be the way of it. As a coach, I'd be re-calibrating targets and setting new goals, but I know in Offaly I'd lose half the dressing room and 3/4 of the fans.

The flipside of that is that when we *do* become good enough, we'll take the bull by the horns and win something. I'm sure of it. I hope we have a good league campaign next year, and then get a nice draw in the first round in Leinster. Offaly are a fierce 'momentum' team.

By the way, not sure about the Westmeath comment. I think they'll be fine in the short to medium term at least.

[Lone Shark]

I think they would say that's exactly what the situation is balladmaker. Effectively the Qualifiers are an independent competition, on an open draw basis. The Provincials only determine at what stage of the All Ireland championship you enter.

My point is that the Provincials should have no impact on the All Ireland whatsoever due to the fact that they load All Ireland Q/Final qualification in favour of several counties each year.  The fact that they presently dictate where you enter the All Ireland series should be removed.  I can see why Kerry & Cork would be against this though.

Any All Ireland competition needs to afford each county of playing the same number of rounds  to get to the Q/Final stage, and an open draw means anyone can draw anyone.  At present, Kerry never get the chance to travel to Omagh in a first round Championship game, or Tyrone to Waterford etc. etc.

In a competition where there is a realistic prospect of a potential All Ireland winner slipping up to a middling team, I'd say fair enough - but that really doesn't happen any more. When was the last time that a middle of the road team knocked a top five side out of the championship?

If Tyrone are so poor that they trip up to any of the teams in that round 2 pot, they aren't within ten points of winning an All Ireland. And to be honest, none of the other fifteen teams in there (or three of the four teams that will join after the provincial finals) are in with a shout either.

The All Ireland will be determined by the big games between the top teams, as is almost always the case. Tyrone will play a few more games to get there than Kerry or Cork will, but they'll all end up in the quarters either way.

[Captain Obvious]

I think they would say that's exactly what the situation is balladmaker. Effectively the Qualifiers are an independent competition, on an open draw basis. The Provincials only determine at what stage of the All Ireland championship you enter.

My point is that the Provincials should have no impact on the All Ireland whatsoever due to the fact that they load All Ireland Q/Final qualification in favour of several counties each year.  The fact that they presently dictate where you enter the All Ireland series should be removed.  I can see why Kerry & Cork would be against this though.

Any All Ireland competition needs to afford each county of playing the same number of rounds  to get to the Q/Final stage, and an open draw means anyone can draw anyone.  At present, Kerry never get the chance to travel to Omagh in a first round Championship game, or Tyrone to Waterford etc. etc.

In a competition where there is a realistic prospect of a potential All Ireland winner slipping up to a middling team, I'd say fair enough - but that really doesn't happen any more. When was the last time that a middle of the road team knocked a top five side out of the championship?

If Tyrone are so poor that they trip up to any of the teams in that round 2 pot, they aren't within ten points of winning an All Ireland. And to be honest, none of the other fifteen teams in there (or three of the four teams that will join after the provincial finals) are in with a shout either.

The All Ireland will be determined by the big games between the top teams, as is almost always the case. Tyrone will play a few more games to get there than Kerry or Cork will, but they'll all end up in the quarters either way.

Tyrone v Sligo,Laois in 2002,2006?

[Syferus]

Kerry beat us in 2003.

[Captain Obvious]

Armagh v Fermanagh in 2004 another one.