FRC proposals...black cards, marks etc

[Milltown Row2]

Shock horror !!
Liam O'Neill suggesting that hurling needsa black card to punish deliberate fouling etc but he's "not sure if hurling is ready for this".
Surely as Uachtarán he must know there's no fouling in hurling - only silly Referees who blow the whistle too often.

What do you care about hurling? If it doesn't affect you as a footballer then no harm done? 99% of all fouls are deliberate. There is less of that type of fouling in hurling otherwise it would be brought in don't you think?

Come on now!

Ok 100%

Ok I'm being realistic now Id say in a match I'll blow for possibly 2 or 3 accidental fouls and 3 or 4 technical fouls (which is a lot better than what it used to be)

[playwiththewind1st]

I think lads are trying to find issues where none exist. There is a clear distinction between black card offences and non-black card ones so if a ref is not issuing black cards where he should then I'm sure he'll stop getting games.

Adjudicating on whether a fouls is deliberate or not will be tricky and refs will get it wrong sometimes but since we can never get that 100% right should we keep the punishment for deliberate fouling lenient so some innocent players don't get punished too hard or have a stiffer punishment knowing that it will help reduce cynical fouling?

There's a clear distinction between yellow card offences and non-yellow card ones as well - that hasn't stopped refs not applying the yellow card rule. There is often no consistency in the application of the yellow card rule within a game itself, never mind between the refs as a group. Something that's let go at the beginning of a game could earn a yellow later on in the game - we see it all the time.

So here's a good idea to try and solve it - they can't apply the current rules, so lets introduce more rules and cards striaght into the highest levels of the game without a trial in a less high profile setting.

You couldn't make it up.

I agree re the trialling but it's wrong to say there is a clear distinction between yellow and non-yellow offences, certainly compared to the black cards. Referees often display a bit of leniency or go in all guns blazing early in a game and it's perfectly reasonable that an offence in the first minute might be adjudged differently in the 60th minute.

Ok, maybe they're all not as clear. Something like 5.24 (To engage in any other form of rough play) is a bit more subjective than the black card rules, but 5.25 (To attempt to achieve an advantage by feigning a foul or injury) is as clear as day and you won't see consistency within a game, never mind from the same ref in different games or from different refs.

I know what you're saying (highlighted) and I think it often makes for a better spectacle but I also think it's a huge part of the problem - they'll let something go in the early part of the game but then caution a player for a carbon copy later on. It's a huge source of frustration for players and supporters alike and when the current rules aren't being applied I find it surreal that additional rules and cards are being introduced without any sort of trial. Showing a few yellows earlier in the game will leave a few fellas in the position that they're not willing to take the second yellow later in the match and won't risk the second yellow.

The referee a few years ago had no problem in an All Ireland semi final sending off the Portlaios lad in the 1st minute, which had a bearing on the game

I remember a couple of years ago assessing [yes, it was still assessing then] a guy in a championship semi-final in Casement. He caught 2 guys wrestling, on the ground, off the ball, in the 1st minute. He yellow carded both & set his stall out & had a class game after that. I gave him all due praise in his report for doing so, beacause he demonstrated total control & authority from the off. 1st minute / last minute - it doesn't matter: apply the rules. This crap about letting everything "settle down" in championship matches, i.e. tolerate nearly everything for the 1st 5-10 minutes, isn't really on. The black card thing will take a settling in period but if it takes out the cynical fouling such as a certain incident which was witnessed last year, so much the better.

[blewuporstuffed]

Shock horror !!
Liam O'Neill suggesting that hurling needsa black card to punish deliberate fouling etc but he's "not sure if hurling is ready for this".
Surely as Uachtarán he must know there's no fouling in hurling - only silly Referees who blow the whistle too often.

What do you care about hurling? If it doesn't affect you as a footballer then no harm done? 99% of all fouls are deliberate. There is less of that type of fouling in hurling otherwise it would be brought in don't you think?

Come on now!

Ok 100%

Ok I'm being realistic now Id say in a match I'll blow for possibly 2 or 3 accidental fouls and 3 or 4 technical fouls (which is a lot better than what it used to be)

you honestly believe that the percentage is that high?

I couldnt put a figure on it, but there are a lot of fouls blown in football for incidental contact where two palyers are both trying to fairly win the ball , were the ball is brought into contact and there is very little the defending player can do, but still seems to concede a free and for players just out and out 'buying' frees by going down easily, grabbing the arm & running across the defender to get a bit of contact and then going down.

Granted some of these incidents leave it very hard for the referee to differeniate but to say 99% of frees given are deliberate fouls is complete nonsense IMO

[Milltown Row2]

Shock horror !!
Liam O'Neill suggesting that hurling needsa black card to punish deliberate fouling etc but he's "not sure if hurling is ready for this".
Surely as Uachtarán he must know there's no fouling in hurling - only silly Referees who blow the whistle too often.

What do you care about hurling? If it doesn't affect you as a footballer then no harm done? 99% of all fouls are deliberate. There is less of that type of fouling in hurling otherwise it would be brought in don't you think?

Come on now!

Ok 100%

Ok I'm being realistic now Id say in a match I'll blow for possibly 2 or 3 accidental fouls and 3 or 4 technical fouls (which is a lot better than what it used to be)

you honestly believe that the percentage is that high?

I couldn't put a figure on it, but there are a lot of fouls blown in football for incidental contact where two palyers are both trying to fairly win the ball , were the ball is brought into contact and there is very little the defending player can do, but still seems to concede a free and for players just out and out 'buying' frees by going down easily, grabbing the arm & running across the defender to get a bit of contact and then going down.

Granted some of these incidents leave it very hard for the referee to differeniate but to say 99% of frees given are deliberate fouls is complete nonsense IMO

I brought the figure down a bit, but the bit in bold I normally let play go on, accidental fouls are different in that one player brings another down when running by him or into him there are other ones. I've been refereeing for a while so I'm only giving you my view on it. Some referees will blow a lot more and can be over officious I'm not, I'll get pulled now from playwiththewind1st

As for players buying frees again difficult to call unless you are running at a angle to catch it, but players usually know your style and when they don't get the fouls usually change their tact. I hope that's what happens when the black card comes out and they adjust to the new rules

[blewuporstuffed]

Yeah fair enough.
My view would be (granted i may be a bit bias from a  defenders point of view) is that diving, buying frees,grabbing of the arm etc is every bit as cynical as anything else that goes on, but there is very little sanction for it and very little done to stamp it out.
The thing is , it can be very hard to spot and difficult for refferees to make the right call on.
My main worry about the black card, is that it is another incentive for this type of thing.

[Milltown Row2]

Yeah fair enough.
My view would be (granted i may be a bit bias from a  defenders point of view) is that diving, buying frees,grabbing of the arm etc is every bit as cynical as anything else that goes on, but there is very little sanction for it and very little done to stamp it out.
The thing is , it can be very hard to spot and difficult for refferees to make the right call on.
My main worry about the black card, is that it is another incentive for this type of thing.

Yes and it puts that we bitta presure on the referee, I certainly will black card a player if I see him pull a player down as there is no difference in grabing a defenders arm and draging him to the ground as if hes being fould instead, again hard to call but all referees will blow for it if they see it.

[Rossfan]

Shock horror !!
Liam O'Neill suggesting that hurling needsa black card to punish deliberate fouling etc but he's "not sure if hurling is ready for this".
Surely as Uachtarán he must know there's no fouling in hurling - only silly Referees who blow the whistle too often.

What do you care about hurling?
There is less of that type of fouling in hurling otherwise it would be brought in don't you think?

I'm a follower of Gaelic games and I have some interest in hurling and therefore entitled to express my opinions (or shpuld that only be confined to people from the "real" hurling Counties).
I am regularly induced to puking by the general lawless attitude of "hurling men" and the head in the sand attitude that there is no cynicism in that game.
Contrast the series of unpunished assaults on Anthony Nash when he came up field to take a free v Clare to how footballers let opposing goalies up field ( as they should of course) to take 45s etc. If the footballers did interfere with the goalie they'd be yellow carded on the spot.
Then we had Davy complaining that people were complaining about the assaults on Nash 
And of course Squirrel praising Joe Canning for scoring a fantastic goal one time and saying that anyone complaining about him carrying the ball for 15 steps was only being "picky".

[Milltown Row2]

Shock horror !!
Liam O'Neill suggesting that hurling needsa black card to punish deliberate fouling etc but he's "not sure if hurling is ready for this".
Surely as Uachtarán he must know there's no fouling in hurling - only silly Referees who blow the whistle too often.

What do you care about hurling?
There is less of that type of fouling in hurling otherwise it would be brought in don't you think?

I'm a follower of Gaelic games and I have some interest in hurling and therefore entitled to express my opinions (or shpuld that only be confined to people from the "real" hurling Counties).
I am regularly induced to puking by the general lawless attitude of "hurling men" and the head in the sand attitude that there is no cynicism in that game.
Contrast the series of unpunished assaults on Anthony Nash when he came up field to take a free v Clare to how footballers let opposing goalies up field ( as they should of course) to take 45s etc. If the footballers did interfere with the goalie they'd be yellow carded on the spot.
Then we had Davy complaining that people were complaining about the assaults on Nash 
And of course Squirrel praising Joe Canning for scoring a fantastic goal one time and saying that anyone complaining about him carrying the ball for 15 steps was only being "picky".

It is the referees call on the steps, if he feels (as it is in football) that he's being fouled as he's running in (as it is most occasions) he'll give him an extra few, now we can play advantage or pull it back to the original foul. You are talking about highly charged games a bitta common sense sometimes is the best thing.

If a lines man sees a player being struck (as in Nash) off the ball he'll inform the referee and if the referee sees it he'll book him also. This also happens in football. But there has been a clear distinction between football and hurling, they are they two separate sports , the only thing that is the same is steps taken, timing some challenges and the scoring.

It's like comparing hockey and soccer, why non hurling people are calling for changes in a game they don't play in is silly, I play both referee both I can see advantages in some of the rules for referees and teams that like to play the game without getting fouled.

I'm not knocking your interest in hurling I wish there was more interested in playing it but that's a different matter

[johnneycool]

It is the referees call on the steps, if he feels (as it is in football) that he's being fouled as he's running in (as it is most occasions) he'll give him an extra few, now we can play advantage or pull it back to the original foul. You are talking about highly charged games a bitta common sense sometimes is the best thing.

I know most referees do as you say, but surely there comes a point when the initial foul on a player can't be rewarded/playing of advantage to allow the offended to they themselves foul the ball as sometimes happens in both sports with up to 8 or 9 steps being taken?

Where do you draw the line?

I presume this advantage rule of allowing play to continue for 5 seconds or whatever and then bring it back is similar, say the advantage is being played and the player in possession then fouls the ball, do you go back and award them the original foul or do you give the opposition the free for the second technical foul during the advantage phase??

Get my drift?

[Milltown Row2]

It is the referees call on the steps, if he feels (as it is in football) that he's being fouled as he's running in (as it is most occasions) he'll give him an extra few, now we can play advantage or pull it back to the original foul. You are talking about highly charged games a bitta common sense sometimes is the best thing.

I know most referees do as you say, but surely there comes a point when the initial foul on a player can't be rewarded/playing of advantage to allow the offended to they themselves foul the ball as sometimes happens in both sports with up to 8 or 9 steps being taken?

Where do you draw the line?

I presume this advantage rule of allowing play to continue for 5 seconds or whatever and then bring it back is similar, say the advantage is being played and the player in possession then fouls the ball, do you go back and award them the original foul or do you give the opposition the free for the second technical foul during the advantage phase??

Get my drift?

That question was brought up, if he fouls the ball while you give him advantage then its a foul the other way, the player must not foul the ball.

With a player hanging off an attacker while he's running in its only natural to allow the attacker a few steps to see if he can break the tackle and get a shot on goal. Defenders need to not try and pull him back and still shout how many steps referee??? I normally respond with stop fouling him ffs. The advantage rule should help though

[johnneycool]

That question was brought up, if he fouls the ball while you give him advantage then its a foul the other way, the player must not foul the ball.

If I've been fouled, does the ref shout 'advantage' or whatever or how would I know? I may want to take the free as I'm shite at scoring and our free taker is deadly accurate. Can I let the referee know this?

In rugby if there's an advantage being played and I want to take the penalty, the scrum half or whoever would deliberately foul the ball and the penalty would be awarded, I presume there's no mechanism for this, is there?

[Milltown Row2]

That question was brought up, if he fouls the ball while you give him advantage then its a foul the other way, the player must not foul the ball.

If I've been fouled, does the ref shout 'advantage' or whatever or how would I know? I may want to take the free as I'm shite at scoring and our free taker is deadly accurate. Can I let the referee know this?

In rugby if there's an advantage being played and I want to take the penalty, the scrum half or whoever would deliberately foul the ball and the penalty would be awarded, I presume there's no mechanism for this, is there?

Again this was brought up and it's a bit of a grey area, you can't just say I'll take the free as the referee just needs to raise his arm to show he's playing advantage he doesn't need to say (shout it) it though Pat thought that it would be better if you did. If you stop and have the ball in hand longer than the 4 steps then it's over carrying (like your last post, fouling while being allowed advantage) so the common approach would be to play the ball and if there is no advantage the referee should bring it back to the original spot lol!!!

For me I'll more or less only play the advantage rule once over the half way line, if a defender is getting fouled coming out of corner back then the best advantage is to blow and allow the defenders to clear their lines?

Don't bust my balls when I'm do your way this summer

[blewuporstuffed]

That question was brought up, if he fouls the ball while you give him advantage then its a foul the other way, the player must not foul the ball.

If I've been fouled, does the ref shout 'advantage' or whatever or how would I know? I may want to take the free as I'm shite at scoring and our free taker is deadly accurate. Can I let the referee know this?

In rugby if there's an advantage being played and I want to take the penalty, the scrum half or whoever would deliberately foul the ball and the penalty would be awarded, I presume there's no mechanism for this, is there?

Again this was brought up and it's a bit of a grey area, you can't just say I'll take the free as the referee just needs to raise his arm to show he's playing advantage he doesn't need to say (shout it) it though Pat thought that it would be better if you did. If you stop and have the ball in hand longer than the 4 steps then it's over carrying (like your last post, fouling while being allowed advantage) so the common approach would be to play the ball and if there is no advantage the referee should bring it back to the original spot lol!!!

For me I'll more or less only play the advantage rule once over the half way line, if a defender is getting fouled coming out of corner back then the best advantage is to blow and allow the defenders to clear their lines?

Don't bust my balls when I'm do your way this summer

i would have thought the only time it is ever an advantage to wave play on is when the player is through on goal, or broken away from the defender altogether.
if he is still being tackled it is NEVER an advantage to be waved on as it would always be easier to have the free and kick the score under no pressure than try and continue while still being tackled or allowing another defender to come across

[Milltown Row2]

That question was brought up, if he fouls the ball while you give him advantage then its a foul the other way, the player must not foul the ball.

If I've been fouled, does the ref shout 'advantage' or whatever or how would I know? I may want to take the free as I'm shite at scoring and our free taker is deadly accurate. Can I let the referee know this?

In rugby if there's an advantage being played and I want to take the penalty, the scrum half or whoever would deliberately foul the ball and the penalty would be awarded, I presume there's no mechanism for this, is there?

Again this was brought up and it's a bit of a grey area, you can't just say I'll take the free as the referee just needs to raise his arm to show he's playing advantage he doesn't need to say (shout it) it though Pat thought that it would be better if you did. If you stop and have the ball in hand longer than the 4 steps then it's over carrying (like your last post, fouling while being allowed advantage) so the common approach would be to play the ball and if there is no advantage the referee should bring it back to the original spot lol!!!

For me I'll more or less only play the advantage rule once over the half way line, if a defender is getting fouled coming out of corner back then the best advantage is to blow and allow the defenders to clear their lines?

Don't bust my balls when I'm do your way this summer

i would have thought the only time it is ever an advantage to wave play on is when the player is through on goal, or broken away from the defender altogether.
if he is still being tackled it is NEVER an advantage to be waved on as it would always be easier to have the free and kick the score under no pressure than try and continue while still being tackled or allowing another defender to come across

There is no advantage rule for one part of teh pitch, the original rule was to allow for a free flowing game and to put an end to the stop start nature of the game, if a defender breaks a tackle coming (while giving an advantage) out of defence and plays a ball to a forward that has moved early into a open space then the advantage rule is better because giving a foul will allow defenders to get tighter to their men when waiting on the free/kick to be taken. The referee will judge this I'm sure

[Hound]

If I've been fouled, does the ref shout 'advantage' or whatever or how would I know? I may want to take the free as I'm shite at scoring and our free taker is deadly accurate. Can I let the referee know this?

In rugby if there's an advantage being played and I want to take the penalty, the scrum half or whoever would deliberately foul the ball and the penalty would be awarded, I presume there's no mechanism for this, is there?

An interesting one will be if you're fouled close to goal, the ref signals advantage and you shoot within the 5 seconds.
If the ball goes wide does the ref say, tough luck, you used your advantage and messed it up?
Or will it be like rugby, you got your shot off while advantage was being played so if its a miss, the ball is brought back and free awarded.