FRC proposals...black cards, marks etc

[barelegs]

John Fogarty had a tweet about 20 minutes into the Mayo game that Mayo had out fouled Donegal by 13 fouls to 3 in that period. It was Brolly raising that issue of tactical fouling (as opposed to cynical fouling) that riled the Mayo folk up last year. The picture on the Mayo Tyrone thread of Niall Morgan getting hauled down in the league game kind of sums it up. They wouldn't need to foul that close to goal because they've all their men back having fouled up the field. Donegal were masters at it.


The black card might have the best of intentions but to be honest it's success depend as always on how referees implement it and to be honest based on what I've see this summer I've got absolutely no faith in the current referees finding any sort of consistency.

Why something as radical as it was introduced without a trial is bizarre. Not another sporting organisation in the world would have introduced such a proposal without testing it out somewhere first.

[blewuporstuffed]

John Fogarty had a tweet about 20 minutes into the Mayo game that Mayo had out fouled Donegal by 13 fouls to 3 in that period. It was Brolly raising that issue of tactical fouling (as opposed to cynical fouling) that riled the Mayo folk up last year. The picture on the Mayo Tyrone thread of Niall Morgan getting hauled down in the league game kind of sums it up. They wouldn't need to foul that close to goal because they've all their men back having fouled up the field. Donegal were masters at it.


The black card might have the best of intentions but to be honest it's success depend as always on how referees implement it and to be honest based on what I've see this summer I've got absolutely no faith in the current referees finding any sort of consistency.

Why something as radical as it was introduced without a trial is bizarre. Not another sporting organisation in the world would have introduced such a proposal without testing it out somewhere first.

completely agree with this.
i think intercounty referees will struggle to implement it consistently , so i dread to think how it will play out down the levels

[DJGaliv]

Surely black cards are going to promote diving and conning the ref. If you are up against a team with a dominant midfielder and are getting wiped, it will just be a case of lets see who can get a black card off him.

We will return to the "hold the face" attitude anytime you get a shoulder or the slightest bit of contact around the chest.
The stricter rules you bring in, the more space for play acting. Look at soccer. I think if we are to bring in a black card there also needs to be a heavy deterrent in for diving. There's no point in us waiting for it to become a massive problem over the next 5 years before seeing how we can stop it.

[blewuporstuffed]

Surely black cards are going to promote diving and conning the ref. If you are up against a team with a dominant midfielder and are getting wiped, it will just be a case of lets see who can get a black card off him.

We will return to the "hold the face" attitude anytime you get a shoulder or the slightest bit of contact around the chest.
The stricter rules you bring in, the more space for play acting. Look at soccer. I think if we are to bring in a black card there also needs to be a heavy deterrent in for diving. There's no point in us waiting for it to become a massive problem over the next 5 years before seeing how we can stop it.

i agree completly with this and posted something similar on one of the other threads.
diving is as cynical activity as any of them and should be punished accordingly.
If the black card is to come in, diving should be one of the balck card offenses as well

[Hardy]

Surely black cards are going to promote diving and conning the ref. If you are up against a team with a dominant midfielder and are getting wiped, it will just be a case of lets see who can get a black card off him.

We will return to the "hold the face" attitude anytime you get a shoulder or the slightest bit of contact around the chest.
The stricter rules you bring in, the more space for play acting. Look at soccer. I think if we are to bring in a black card there also needs to be a heavy deterrent in for diving. There's no point in us waiting for it to become a massive problem over the next 5 years before seeing how we can stop it.

i agree completly with this and posted something similar on one of the other threads.
diving is as cynical activity as any of them and should be punished accordingly.
If the black card is to come in, diving should be one of the balck card offenses as well

Spot on, both posts. I'd make a slight modification - diving and injury feigning are by far the most cynical activities of any of them. The black card is a charter for both.

[AQMP]

I think this was mentioned by another poster (possibly AZOffaly?) but one development I can see happening is the appearance of the rugby "choke tackle" where 2/3 defenders tightly surround a player in possession and more or less stand him up preventing him from hitting the deck until he overcarries??  Might be within the rules but isn't going to look good.

[Zulu]

Surely black cards are going to promote diving and conning the ref. If you are up against a team with a dominant midfielder and are getting wiped, it will just be a case of lets see who can get a black card off him.

We will return to the "hold the face" attitude anytime you get a shoulder or the slightest bit of contact around the chest.
The stricter rules you bring in, the more space for play acting. Look at soccer. I think if we are to bring in a black card there also needs to be a heavy deterrent in for diving. There's no point in us waiting for it to become a massive problem over the next 5 years before seeing how we can stop it.

i agree completly with this and posted something similar on one of the other threads.
diving is as cynical activity as any of them and should be punished accordingly.
If the black card is to come in, diving should be one of the balck card offenses as well

Spot on, both posts. I'd make a slight modification - diving and injury feigning are by far the most cynical activities of any of them. The black card is a charter for both.

I agree but it comes down to the ability of the ref to assess that there was a dive and not genuine contact, it isn't always easy to do. We've all probably shouted at the TV or at a game to 'get up outta that, there's nothin wrong with ya' only to see a replay showing the contact. We don't have to make the on the spot decision to black card a guy for diving and I'm not sure adding to a referees burden is the correct way to go. Perhaps a better idea would be to allow a committee to review games and suspend players for 3 games diving or exaggerating injury. It obviously wouldn't prevent it happening on the day but should prove such a deterrent that few players would attempt it.

[Frank Casey]

Would you look at the rugby idea of a citing comissioner to look at games afterwards or perhaps the basketball idea of a team reaching a cumulative no. of frees getting say a 21 yard free once this "allowance" is exceeded.

Mind you with all the craic that football is little better than rugby or basketball......

[muppet]

This black card thing could lead to a basketball style scenario with players getting 'fouled out' of the game tactically, to keep the scoreboard down. For example why not have your goalkeeper pull the man down (esp if it is outside the area) and then you get your sub keeper on? You stop the goal that might make all of the difference.

Stopping the professional foul in Gaa would be really tough. Look at the same foul in soccer (last man etc.) and the recent offside interpretations (not interfering with play). Defining such a rule for Gaa would be very difficult (e.g a last man rule wouldn't stop much).

Someone mentioned team fouls, that would lead to tactical fouling again a lá basketball. This might work better than the professional foul or black card rules, but you could see refs getting slaughtered for putting one team on team fouls and not the other.

I saw the penalty try in rugby also mentioned here. There would be war if officials in Gaa started awarding goals and imagine trying to define the requirements, when we still can't define the tackle, or at least we can't agree on interpretation.

Maybe the way to go is a general unsportsmanlike conduct or a bringing the game into disrepute rule, but again try finding a definition that would be agreeable and universally interpreted.

Be careful what you ask for.

[Hardy]

I've read all the proposals here and considered the sensible ones and I'm convinced that the black card will be a disaster and that  the only reasonable solution is the 21 metre free for pulling down offences only. Perhaps a penalty for pulling down inside the 20 metre line. I think the existing deterrents for other fouls are adequate.

- It's simple to define the score-preventing or momentum-stopping tackle - say two hands around the player (whether he falls or not) or a deliberate trip.
- The 21-metre free/penalty would be an effective deterrent.
- It doesn't require a sideline army of accountants and timekeepers and is easily applicable at every level of the game.
- It wouldn't encourage diving as it's hard to simulate.

[blewuporstuffed]

I've read all the proposals here and considered the sensible ones and I'm convinced that the black card will be a disaster and that  the only reasonable solution is the 21 metre free for pulling down offences only. Perhaps a penalty for pulling down inside the 20 metre line. I think the existing deterrents for other fouls are adequate.

- It's simple to define the score-preventing or momentum-stopping tackle - say two hands around the player (whether he falls or not) or a deliberate trip.
- The 21-metre free/penalty would be an effective deterrent.
- It doesn't require a sideline army of accountants and timekeepers and is easily applicable at every level of the game.
- It wouldn't encourage diving as it's hard to simulate.

i think this would have been a better solution than the black card alright.
At least the team is almost certainly punished on the scoreboard, whereas with the black card, having to replace a player in the last 5 or 10 minutes of a game with a fresh player might be no punishment whatsoever

i still think for any of these proposals to work correctly, a sanction for diving needs to be implemented alongside them.

[Hardy]

I've read all the proposals here and considered the sensible ones and I'm convinced that the black card will be a disaster and that  the only reasonable solution is the 21 metre free for pulling down offences only. Perhaps a penalty for pulling down inside the 20 metre line. I think the existing deterrents for other fouls are adequate.

- It's simple to define the score-preventing or momentum-stopping tackle - say two hands around the player (whether he falls or not) or a deliberate trip.
- The 21-metre free/penalty would be an effective deterrent.
- It doesn't require a sideline army of accountants and timekeepers and is easily applicable at every level of the game.
- It wouldn't encourage diving as it's hard to simulate.

i still think for any of these proposals to work correctly, a sanction for diving needs to be implemented alongside them.

Absolutely. I forgot to mention that but it goes without saying. That is the real cynical behaviour.

By the way, most people don't even know there is already a yellow card sanction in the rules for diving and injury feigning. That's probably because it's only been used once, that I know of, in the half-dozen or so years it's been on the books. What does that say about refereeing standards and about the standard of referee supervision?

[take_yer_points]

I've read all the proposals here and considered the sensible ones and I'm convinced that the black card will be a disaster and that  the only reasonable solution is the 21 metre free for pulling down offences only. Perhaps a penalty for pulling down inside the 20 metre line. I think the existing deterrents for other fouls are adequate.

- It's simple to define the score-preventing or momentum-stopping tackle - say two hands around the player (whether he falls or not) or a deliberate trip.
- The 21-metre free/penalty would be an effective deterrent.
- It doesn't require a sideline army of accountants and timekeepers and is easily applicable at every level of the game.
- It wouldn't encourage diving as it's hard to simulate.

i still think for any of these proposals to work correctly, a sanction for diving needs to be implemented alongside them.

Absolutely. I forgot to mention that but it goes without saying. That is the real cynical behaviour.

By the way, most people don't even know there is already a yellow card sanction in the rules for diving and injury feigning. That's probably because it's only been used once, that I know of, in the half-dozen or so years it's been on the books. What does that say about refereeing standards and about the standard of referee supervision?

Spot on there - varying interpretation and application of the rules and an absolute lack of consistency is a major issue. What's the solution I hear you ask??? Make it more complicated by introducing yet another card without trialing it anywhere else first. Genius!!

[Bord na Mona man]

I've read all the proposals here and considered the sensible ones and I'm convinced that the black card will be a disaster and that  the only reasonable solution is the 21 metre free for pulling down offences only. Perhaps a penalty for pulling down inside the 20 metre line. I think the existing deterrents for other fouls are adequate.

- It's simple to define the score-preventing or momentum-stopping tackle - say two hands around the player (whether he falls or not) or a deliberate trip.
- The 21-metre free/penalty would be an effective deterrent.
- It doesn't require a sideline army of accountants and timekeepers and is easily applicable at every level of the game.
- It wouldn't encourage diving as it's hard to simulate.

i think this would have been a better solution than the black card alright.
At least the team is almost certainly punished on the scoreboard, whereas with the black card, having to replace a player in the last 5 or 10 minutes of a game with a fresh player might be no punishment whatsoever

i still think for any of these proposals to work correctly, a sanction for diving needs to be implemented alongside them.

The black card will be ineffective because the drag down tackles to prevent goals tend to occur late in games that are poised on a knife edge. A forced substitution with 5 to go, doesn't make up for a lost goal.

On the other hand, 5 minutes into a game and you're presented with chance to make a meal out of a challenge by a Colm Cooper,  you'll do so, because it will have him off the field for 65 minutes. This is a far bigger game changer.

The problem will still be that serious offences late on aren't adequately punished, whereas more trivial earlier offences can result in a game losingl punishment.

[Canalman]

There will be carnage at club level in 2014 unless all referees are retrained by their CBs or at least given practical guidelines .

Will iimpact hugely on the smaller clubs/ junior teams which regularly tog out with the bare 15.

Is a Jersey pull enough for a black card???

Going to put alot of club referees under alot of  (even more) pressure ( no neutral linesmen or umpires to help them like at intercounty level).