FRC proposals...black cards, marks etc

[Jinxy]

"Trippin an opponent? That's a black card."
"Making fun of the opposition sponsor? That's a black card."
"Pulling your socks all the way up? That's a black card."
"Asking an opponent how much he paid for his boots? That's a black card."

[magpie seanie]

As far as I know yes but you can also still do so with yellow cards can't you?

MS, any increased punishment for fouling will also have the effect of increasing the temptation for diving so you can't have one without the other. Refereeing standards are definitely an issue but this makes their job easier and I can't see how anyone can suggest otherwise. The game is difficult to ref, especially in contact situations but the black card fouls are fairly clear cut.

So punish diving - that's the more pressing issue! Punish diving and apply the current rules correctly or at least much better than presently and you would be almost perfect. Diving and bad refereeing is the blight on the game. The "Deliberate" fouls in the FRC video should all be yellow cards anyway so rather than having a guy one step from having his team down a man his team are forced to substitute him. A lot of teams would do this anyway.

[Zulu]

It clearly defines what a black card is for both refs and players this will make it easier for refs to administer the black card and all players will know it they do commit these fouls they'll get sent off so this will reduce the number of such fouls. These offences already exist in the game so I don't see how giving a black card rather than a red or yellow will increase the burden on refs.

Is there a clear definition of what a yellow and red card is? As RFRP said a few posts ago there was 1 yellow card shown for all those offences in the video - do you think more than one of them should have been a yellow?

I think there should have been a few yellows (and I could be wrong of course) and that shows that the refs don't understand the clear definition of what a yellow card is and this just introduces further complexity to the current misunderstanding of the sanctions available (even worse, they are the refs of intercounty games and should be the best refs in the country!!). The ref must now educate themselves on what constitutes a black, yellow and red card offence - but from the examples in the video they don't even understand what a yellow is and they've been about for years now.

I can't understand this being passed without at least being trialled at a lower level. I'm not comparing GAA to other sports, but can you think of a rule change in another sport that was introduced directly to the highest level in that sport without a trial at a lower level? It may well end up being a great rule* but introducing it in this manner is totally wrong

* I don't think it will - the refs don't currently implement the sanctions available consistently and this is going to lead to more inconsistency from refs and more frustration from county/club managers and players.

Agree re the trial but to be fair to the GAA they probably didn't want these things to fail not because they weren't working but because certain IC managers would spend all their time undercutting them as they did the sin bin.

The rule book in the GAA isn't great as it leaves too much to interpretation but it isn't fair to simply hammer refs all the time as players don't make it easy at all. There are weaknesses with the black card but it does address some issues we have and a number of fouls we saw over the weekend should largely disappear. The problem with these types of things is too many GAA folk focus on what it doesn't address rather than what it does. No rule will solve everything and cynical play will continue to be a part of football, as it is, all other sports bt the black card is a step in the right direction.

[magpie seanie]

So only one yellow issued for those fouls on the video - that clearly shows that the problem is refereeing.

[Zulu]

As far as I know yes but you can also still do so with yellow cards can't you?

MS, any increased punishment for fouling will also have the effect of increasing the temptation for diving so you can't have one without the other. Refereeing standards are definitely an issue but this makes their job easier and I can't see how anyone can suggest otherwise. The game is difficult to ref, especially in contact situations but the black card fouls are fairly clear cut.

So punish diving - that's the more pressing issue! Punish diving and apply the current rules correctly or at least much better than presently and you would be almost perfect. Diving and bad refereeing is the blight on the game. The "Deliberate" fouls in the FRC video should all be yellow cards anyway so rather than having a guy one step from having his team down a man his team are forced to substitute him. A lot of teams would do this anyway.

The yellow card has shown itself to be no deterrent and those of you concerned about the pressure referees will now be under would be among the first to cry holy war your star man was sent off for two innocuous yellows.

I agree diving should be punished but that could only be done retrospectively and I've been in enough online arguments about whether there was 'contact' or if there was a leg in or a hand to the face to know deciding whether a 'dive' was actually a dive would have GAA disciplinary committees fully engaged all year round with appeals and what not.

[Zulu]

So only one yellow issued for those fouls on the video - that clearly shows that the problem is refereeing.

It's part of the problem, not all of it.

[take_yer_points]

It clearly defines what a black card is for both refs and players this will make it easier for refs to administer the black card and all players will know it they do commit these fouls they'll get sent off so this will reduce the number of such fouls. These offences already exist in the game so I don't see how giving a black card rather than a red or yellow will increase the burden on refs.

Is there a clear definition of what a yellow and red card is? As RFRP said a few posts ago there was 1 yellow card shown for all those offences in the video - do you think more than one of them should have been a yellow?

I think there should have been a few yellows (and I could be wrong of course) and that shows that the refs don't understand the clear definition of what a yellow card is and this just introduces further complexity to the current misunderstanding of the sanctions available (even worse, they are the refs of intercounty games and should be the best refs in the country!!). The ref must now educate themselves on what constitutes a black, yellow and red card offence - but from the examples in the video they don't even understand what a yellow is and they've been about for years now.

I can't understand this being passed without at least being trialled at a lower level. I'm not comparing GAA to other sports, but can you think of a rule change in another sport that was introduced directly to the highest level in that sport without a trial at a lower level? It may well end up being a great rule* but introducing it in this manner is totally wrong

* I don't think it will - the refs don't currently implement the sanctions available consistently and this is going to lead to more inconsistency from refs and more frustration from county/club managers and players.

Agree re the trial but to be fair to the GAA they probably didn't want these things to fail not because they weren't working but because certain IC managers would spend all their time undercutting them as they did the sin bin.

The rule book in the GAA isn't great as it leaves too much to interpretation but it isn't fair to simply hammer refs all the time as players don't make it easy at all. There are weaknesses with the black card but it does address some issues we have and a number of fouls we saw over the weekend should largely disappear. The problem with these types of things is too many GAA folk focus on what it doesn't address rather than what it does. No rule will solve everything and cynical play will continue to be a part of football, as it is, all other sports bt the black card is a step in the right direction.

The main thing that stands out for me in this is the ref though. The FRC's own video shows that the refs don't currently implement the correct sanctions when a cardable foul occurs. I can't see how adding in another rule and another card is going to help them - I can only see it leading to less consistency and more frustration. The Sunday Game lads are going to love it and we'll see even less coverage of matches and even more of them tools.

I see where you're coming from but I can't see it as a step in the right direction. In an ideal world with perfect refs who implement the rules as they should be then I could see it as a step in the right direction (though in that scenario I think the current rules implemented correctly would cater for the type of play the black card is being brought in to deal with).

[Zulu]

Well I guess we'll just have to see how it pans out. I don't dismiss the possibility that it will lead to some terrible decisions but I think we need to encourage better people to get involved in refereeing, support them more but also hold them to higher standards and engrain in them to not give a foul if they aren't 100% sure of what happened. Still think the black card will have a positive effect in time.

[johnneycool]

Well I guess we'll just have to see how it pans out. I don't dismiss the possibility that it will lead to some terrible decisions but I think we need to encourage better people to get involved in refereeing, support them more but also hold them to higher standards and engrain in them to not give a foul if they aren't 100% sure of what happened. Still think the black card will have a positive effect in time.

You'd hope the existence of the black card in itself will be a deterrent, but as already said managers will find the boundary of every referee and push it.

I think the issuing of black cards will need to be for very obvious cynical fouls, if there's any doubt that it was just mistimed or whatever, then it needs to be a yellow. Here's hoping it doesn't become a charter for divers to thrive as that's as cynical a play as any off the ball blocking!

[magpie seanie]

So only one yellow issued for those fouls on the video - that clearly shows that the problem is refereeing.

It's part of the problem, not all of it.

If they can't get easy decisions like those right then it's a gigantic problem.

[magpie seanie]

As far as I know yes but you can also still do so with yellow cards can't you?

MS, any increased punishment for fouling will also have the effect of increasing the temptation for diving so you can't have one without the other. Refereeing standards are definitely an issue but this makes their job easier and I can't see how anyone can suggest otherwise. The game is difficult to ref, especially in contact situations but the black card fouls are fairly clear cut.

So punish diving - that's the more pressing issue! Punish diving and apply the current rules correctly or at least much better than presently and you would be almost perfect. Diving and bad refereeing is the blight on the game. The "Deliberate" fouls in the FRC video should all be yellow cards anyway so rather than having a guy one step from having his team down a man his team are forced to substitute him. A lot of teams would do this anyway.

The yellow card has shown itself to be no deterrent and those of you concerned about the pressure referees will now be under would be among the first to cry holy war your star man was sent off for two innocuous yellows.

I agree diving should be punished but that could only be done retrospectively and I've been in enough online arguments about whether there was 'contact' or if there was a leg in or a hand to the face to know deciding whether a 'dive' was actually a dive would have GAA disciplinary committees fully engaged all year round with appeals and what not.

"Two innocuous yellows" - there should be no such thing, yellow cards are clearly defined in the playing rules. If the refs were doing their jobs correctly then any yellow would be deserved and if a guy got a second good luck to him - off you go. The team pays.

Under this new scheme the team doesn't pay. In fact it could be said that it rewards tactical fouling for teams with adequate resources. I can also see loads of off the ball histrionics for alleged 3rd man tackles - even worse than some of the acting in that FDC video.

[Rossfan]

The prophets of doom are having a field day 
We'll all be ruined says Hanrahan .
I'm still waiting for the "end of the GAA as we know it" line.

Jasus I never heard so much whinging in all me days as there is from SOME people on this subject.
And now we're back to Rule 42 

[Main Street]

So only one yellow issued for those fouls on the video - that clearly shows that the problem is refereeing.

Is there a link to this video please?

[take_yer_points]

So only one yellow issued for those fouls on the video - that clearly shows that the problem is refereeing.

Is there a link to this video please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBhikkHoNcg&sns=tw

[Main Street]

So only one yellow issued for those fouls on the video - that clearly shows that the problem is refereeing.

Is there a link to this video please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBhikkHoNcg&sns=tw

Thanks TYP.