FRC proposals...black cards, marks etc

[theticklemister]

i can predict what mickey harte is going to be writing about in his piece in the irish news on friday!!!!!!

[The Trap]

How would the black card have stopped the Cadogan/Murphy incident ticklemister? I might even read Hartes column for once!

[Zulu]

The main reason I'm defending these proposals is because there is no perfect solution but something being tried is better than nothing being tried. If they don't work we can always bin them but they need to be given a go and not just shunted at the first bit of criticism.

I'd argue though that trying something that has some notable unintended consequences pointed out which aren't a simple pie-in-the-sky scenario can end up with a worse result than just sticking to the status quo.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I don't think we can be sure of any unintended consequences and therefore we shouldn't reject something on the speculative basis that something negative might occur. If it does and it it is a real problem then we can always go back to the status quo.

[Zulu]

How would the black card have stopped the Cadogan/Murphy incident ticklemister? I might even read Hartes column for once!

That's not even an argument anymore. The punishment could be castration and players would still (probably) commit that foul under certain circumstances but at least there now is a deterrent. I'm amazed you can't het that by now.

[The Trap]

you love contradicting yourself zulu........first you say not even castration would stop that type of foul......then you say there is a deterrant!!!!

[theticklemister]

How would the black card have stopped the Cadogan/Murphy incident ticklemister? I might even read Hartes column for once!

that was in the last minute or two of the game. however would the same player do it after 40 minutes knowing that his team will be going down to 14 men or worse 13 men?

[The Trap]

So it wouldnt have stopped Cadogan? Thats all i asked.........as you had used that as an argument to support the black card.

[Zulu]

That's not a contradiction. If a man was going through on goal in the last seconds of an All Ireland final any defender would pull him down if his team was leading, and any other time I suppose, but under the current rules he may well do it in the 10th minute as well. With the black cards he probably won't and we certainly should see less of forwards pulling down players to allow their teammates get back and form a defensive screen. That has to be a good thing and I'm amazed you are unable to see that.

[theticklemister]

were ye not any good at these jobs? lol

For someone who was a fairly useless player, to have been involved with teams involved in winning and/or reaching county, provincial and All-Ireland finals, I'd say I haven't done that badly for myself.
Remember, those that can, can. Those that can't, teach. 

fair play to ye

So it wouldnt have stopped Cadogan? Thats all i asked.........as you had used that as an argument to support the black card.

I think the black card is a step in the right direction to eradicate fouls like that in the future. Hopefully after a few years with this new system in tow when the players get this kind of fouling out of their heads then it will pat dividends to stop fouls like that.

but in any sport a player can do what cadogan did in the final minutes and likely it will be to the benefit of the team.  what congress hopes is that these fouls will stop throughout the whole  70 minutes.

[brokencrossbar1]

Instead of wasting a pile of man hours in 'thinking' up new rules surely it would have been more suitable that a 'rules education' group be established and each county have officers who go to clubs and basically educate the 'experts' running the different teams.  The rules are there to deal with all acts of cynical play and it would be better to properly enforce the and make the bans more appropriate.  I would much prefer that they introduce a game based suspension system than a time based one and enforce it harder. 

[Zulu]

The main reason I'm defending these proposals is because there is no perfect solution but something being tried is better than nothing being tried. If they don't work we can always bin them but they need to be given a go and not just shunted at the first bit of criticism.

I'd argue though that trying something that has some notable unintended consequences pointed out which aren't a simple pie-in-the-sky scenario can end up with a worse result than just sticking to the status quo.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I don't think we can be sure of any unintended consequences and therefore we shouldn't reject something on the speculative basis that something negative might occur. If it does and it it is a real problem then we can always go back to the status quo.

Ironically I reckon we both agree that the method for introducing this rule should ideally take a different path.

In my opinion, and I may as well throw it out as plenty of others have given their thoughts, would have been to introduce a sin-bin. It's worked well in ladies football where it applies even down to juvenile club level and it isn't that much of a hassle for referees to implement. I'd have an amendment however to take into account the physicality of the mens game compared to that in the ladies code where all deliberate physical contact is forbidden - the first two yellow cards picked up by a team in a game would not be subject to a sin-bin (of course if one player picks up both cards they are sent off). A third and subsequent yellow card issued to any player on that team for the remainder of that game, if the awarding of the card does not result in a player being sent-off, would be subject to a 10 minute penalty.

Again, I agree with the trialling and like you the sin bin was my preferred option and it's what I think will eventually come in but I'm willing to give the black card a go. It's too easy to shoot down things but the reality is what we have isn't working. I'm watching Setanta here and they've shown 3 examples of cynical fouling in the Dublin/Down game and this in a league game. We need to get rid of these fouls as the game can already be too stop start, the black card would remove all 3 of the fouls Setanta highlighted tonight as none of them were necessary.

Instead of wasting a pile of man hours in 'thinking' up new rules surely it would have been more suitable that a 'rules education' group be established and each county have officers who go to clubs and basically educate the 'experts' running the different teams.  The rules are there to deal with all acts of cynical play and it would be better to properly enforce the and make the bans more appropriate.  I would much prefer that they introduce a game based suspension system than a time based one and enforce it harder. 

Not sure what your first point is meant to mean but most players and coaches know the black card offences are illegal, do you think players and coaches need to be told pulling a guy down by the waist is a foul?

The rules aren't there to deal with cynical play and that's the point.

[brokencrossbar1]

[quote

Not sure what your first point is meant to mean but most players and coaches know the black card offences are illegal, do you think players and coaches need to be told pulling a guy down by the waist is a foul?

The rules aren't there to deal with cynical play and that's the point.
[/quote]

What do you mean by cynical play?

[Zulu]

Like if you soloed past me and I just grabbed you around the waist. This happened tonight and has happened in many games, players stopping the man in possession while never attempting to play the ball. That is often simply a free and even if a ref gives a yellow that isn't strong enough as football isn't a player tackling sport it is a ball tackling sport. In the past you might dismiss it as a 'forward tackling' but now it is done purposefully to allow players get back and set up a defensive screen, it needs a greater punishment than a yellow card, which it rarely gets anyway.

[brokencrossbar1]

Like if you soloed past me and I just grabbed you around the waist. This happened tonight and has happened in many games, players stopping the man in possession while never attempting to play the ball. That is often simply a free and even if a ref gives a yellow that isn't strong enough as football isn't a player tackling sport it is a ball tackling sport. In the past you might dismiss it as a 'forward tackling' but now it is done purposefully to allow players get back and set up a defensive screen, it needs a greater punishment than a yellow card, which it rarely gets anyway.

I agree that this 'tactical' fouling has become a greater part of the game.  Simply yellow card the man and enforce it, we don't need to bring in another 'card' to further complicate things.  If they want to cut out cynical fouling how about follow something similar ot basketball and every team that accrues x amount of fouls per half give away a 21 yard free in front of the goals for every foul thereafter.  That would be a better way to punish teams that foul in my book.

[Zulu]

The main reason I'm defending these proposals is because there is no perfect solution but something being tried is better than nothing being tried. If they don't work we can always bin them but they need to be given a go and not just shunted at the first bit of criticism.

I'd argue though that trying something that has some notable unintended consequences pointed out which aren't a simple pie-in-the-sky scenario can end up with a worse result than just sticking to the status quo.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I don't think we can be sure of any unintended consequences and therefore we shouldn't reject something on the speculative basis that something negative might occur. If it does and it it is a real problem then we can always go back to the status quo.

Ironically I reckon we both agree that the method for introducing this rule should ideally take a different path.

In my opinion, and I may as well throw it out as plenty of others have given their thoughts, would have been to introduce a sin-bin. It's worked well in ladies football where it applies even down to juvenile club level and it isn't that much of a hassle for referees to implement. I'd have an amendment however to take into account the physicality of the mens game compared to that in the ladies code where all deliberate physical contact is forbidden - the first two yellow cards picked up by a team in a game would not be subject to a sin-bin (of course if one player picks up both cards they are sent off). A third and subsequent yellow card issued to any player on that team for the remainder of that game, if the awarding of the card does not result in a player being sent-off, would be subject to a 10 minute penalty.

Again, I agree with the trialling and like you the sin bin was my preferred option and it's what I think will eventually come in but I'm willing to give the black card a go. It's too easy to shoot down things but the reality is what we have isn't working. I'm watching Setanta here and they've shown 3 examples of cynical fouling in the Dublin/Down game and this in a league game. We need to get rid of these fouls as the game can already be too stop start, the black card would remove all 3 of the fouls Setanta highlighted tonight as none of them were necessary.

Would it? One temptation might be for a manager to start a burly defender who is told to "take out" a major opposing forward very early in the game in a manner not enough to be a straight sending off, but enough to be given a black card. Defender makes a big hefty challenge on the opponent who either comes off injured or plays on not being 100%. Defender gets black card, usual starting defender goes on in place, job done.
Of course it's a hypothetical, but no less one than assuming the fouls you point out would definitely not happen in a game next year.

I'm not saying those fouls would never happen but over time they would become very rare as no player would want to be sent off for dragging down a player at midfield like McKernan did or a defender coming out as McMenemon  did so I think it is fair to say those fouls would become very rare.

I don't accept any manager would do that or at least that it would be very rare, sure it's easy to say but if we were joint managers of a team and we put on some lug to take out Bernard Brogan in a big game and he was taken for 2 goals in the first 6 minutes and then he tried to do a black card offence that hurt Brogan but didn't veer into red card territory but got it wrong we would be hung. Besides if I was on a team and my manager said to me go out commit a black card offence but make sure it hurts the star opposition forward I would be but bemused and offended. I don't train to act as some kind of thuggish fall guy and I'd doubt I could manage it anyway. Look at Lar Corbett as an example of someone who got ridiculed for trying to do something similar.