FRC proposals...black cards, marks etc

[Zulu]

Hardy, those problems are hard to solve to be fair. The game is hard to referee so being sure a player dived is difficult to judge at times particularly as Hound pointed out when it rarely happens after no contact. See the debate I had here on whether Peter Canavan dived or not after running into a stationary player to see the fun and games we'd have agreeing if there was enough contact to knock a player. I don't disagree with the point about refereeing quality and it infuriates me when I see the difference in hurling ands football refs. But it easy to say standards need to be improved but not easy to achieve.

[Hardy]

Hardy, those problems are hard to solve to be fair. The game is hard to referee so being sure a player dived is difficult to judge at times particularly as Hound pointed out when it rarely happens after no contact. See the debate I had here on whether Peter Canavan dived or not after running into a stationary player to see the fun and games we'd have agreeing if there was enough contact to knock a player. I don't disagree with the point about refereeing quality and it infuriates me when I see the difference in hurling ands football refs. But it easy to say standards need to be improved but not easy to achieve.

Well, they can't have it both ways.

Either the referees are simply ignoring the rule, (it wouldn't be the only one - see goalkeepers advancing off their line for penalties, the game being over when time is up, no matter where the play is, etc.), in which case this is about as major a problem with the administration of football as you can imagine and you'd have thought a football review committee would be interested in having a look at it.

OR

The rule is too hard to referee, as you suggest, (a suggestion I don't accept - so hard to detect that it happened only once in eight-odd years?) in which case it's a major rule problem and you'd have thought a football review committee would be interested in having a look at it.

The truth is that the FRC was set up by a president with a particular agenda, based on a complete failure to understand the nature of the game, to remove the physical content of the game in a misbegotten belief that this will improve its marketability. It's not a surprise, then, to discover that the committee chosen will not include people likely to have a different view of the game, but will comprise people with the set of attitudes likely to deliver the desired result.

[Zulu]

I don't know how you can come out with your last statement, it is a healthy mixture of speculation and gross inaccuracies.

Refs ignore other fouls than the ones you mention but yes there is an issue with refereeing standards however the difficulty of refereeing a football match is a reality and you've come up with no suggestions to change that, all you've done is declare they were hand picked to deliver the solutions Liam O'Neill wants without any supporting evidence.

There are plenty of problems in the GAA and the black card won't solve any of them but it is worth looking at as it clearly states what a black card is and refs will be more inclined to implement it. I think it will undoubtedly improve things though not the perfect solution by any means. UI don't recall you,or anyone else, bemoaning that yellow cards aren't dished out left right and centre before.

[Hardy]

1. It's not my job to reform the rules of football. That was supposed to be the what the FRC would do. Nevertheless, I've presented many suggestions here as to how things could/should have been done.
2. It's not my job either to reform refereeing standards. That's something the FRC should have addressed itself to, but ignored. They had months to consider it, but didn't even recognise the problem, yet you criticise me for failing to come up with the solution when I've already gone a step further than the FRC. If I had nine months to work on it, I'm sure I could come up with some sensible proposals. How about you?
3. I have hardly stopped for years now bemoaning the wholesale dishing out of yellow cards. The yellow card, as currently employed, is not the solution to anything either.
4. My comments on the FRC's and the president's agenda are more than speculation, they are based on the statements of the parties themselves about "attacking" play, "cleaning up" the game, "attractive" football etc.
5. Do you have any position on this wider context to the debate? Do you think it's good for football to minimise the amount of physical content? Do you agree that football needs to be more "attractive". What does that mean? Why is there such an emphasis on the physical aspects of football while hurling seems immune from any tampering with its physical nature?

[Zulu]

1. It's not my job to reform the rules of football. That was supposed to be the what the FRC would do. Nevertheless, I've presented many suggestions here as to how things could/should have been done.

It's nobody's job and this committee did so voluntarily and consulted you and me if you wanted to be. I sent them an email anyway, did you?

It's not my job either to reform refereeing standards. That's something the FRC should have addressed itself to, but ignored. They had months to consider it, but didn't even recognise the problem, yet you criticise me for failing to come up with the solution when I've already gone a step further than the FRC. If I had nine months to work on it, I'm sure I could come up with some sensible proposals. How about you?

I'm not criticising you but it's easy to knock others solutions, harder to come up with good ones of your own. The committee certainly recognised the issue with refs and said so but I'm sure they wanted to propose solutions that would have an immediate effect and could get through. I've already posted changes that could be tried to help refs but I'm sure they'd be knocked by those who seem to want a perfect solution.

My comments on the FRC's and the president's agenda are more than speculation, they are based on the statements of the parties themselves about "attacking" play, "cleaning up" the game, "attractive" football etc.

Adding 2 + 2 and getting 100, or at least anyone could view their statements and read in anything they want.

Do you have any position on this wider context to the debate? Do you think it's good for football to minimise the amount of physical content? Do you agree that football needs to be more "attractive". What does that mean? Why is there such an emphasis on the physical aspects of football while hurling seems immune from any tampering with its physical nature?

I suspect we enjoy the same kind of football. I want to see physical football that isn't stop start due to lazy cynical fouling or a whistle happy ref that doesn't allow lads get stuck in. 

[Hardy]

1. It's not my job to reform the rules of football. That was supposed to be the what the FRC would do. Nevertheless, I've presented many suggestions here as to how things could/should have been done.

It's nobody's job and this committee did so voluntarily and consulted you and me if you wanted to be. I sent them an email anyway, did you?

No.  (Does this mean you win?)

[Zulu]

Depends, is this a discussion or a competition?

[Jinxy]

The black card sure is going to add a good few more minutes to every game. Players walking off slowly, new players coming on etc..

Jesus.

[Celt_Man]

Brand New Proposal and this will get mass support - even in Sligo I'd say...

Get rid of the two Duffy's refereeing!!


It will improve the standard no end!!  Imagine what these two boyos would do with black cards!!

[orangeman]

Brand New Proposal and this will get mass support - even in Sligo I'd say...

Get rid of the two Duffy's refereeing!!


It will improve the standard no end!!  Imagine what these two boyos would do with black cards!!

2 of the best in the business apparently and both getting the big games.

[Bord na Mona man]

Eugene McGee: Black card potent weapon in fight against cynicism

Eugene McGee is chairman of the Football Review Committee.
EUGENE MCGEE – 06 AUGUST 2013

THE black card... remember it? In my innocence, I was trying to forget it myself once the 71pc of GAA Congress delegates in Derry last March voted to implement it from January 2014.

But then came the Sean Cavanagh rugby-style tackle on Conor McManus and all hell broke loose in the stadium, in the media and with rank and file football supporters.

Naturally, Monaghan supporters – and it seems many neutrals – were demanding further sanction for such offences other than a free and yellow card.

But that demand for instant justice, depending on the particular situation, is not sustainable – which is why the black card is being brought in to provide uniformity in enforcing rule-breaking of this cynical type.

So, to spell it out once again, the FRC decided to designate five types of foul, generally described as cynical because it is the intention of the fouler to deliberately stop the play, that would be punishable with a black card.

Enshrined

That word deliberate is enshrined in the new rule because of course there can be fouls like those listed which are genuinely accidental – not many, but some.

The five fouls are: to pull down an opponent; to trip an opponent by hand or foot; to bodily collide with an opponent in order to take him out of the play (otherwise known as a third-man tackle); to remonstrate aggressively with a match official; to verbally abuse a player. The penalty for any of these offences is being sent off via a black card, with a replacement being allowed.

But there are restrictions, notably that if a team has conceded three black cards, a player who commits any further black card offence will be sent off but will not be replaced.

So if a team had four sent off for black cards, they would end up with 14 players and would only have three subs available for the rest of the game as the number of subs is to be increased from five to six in 2013.

The black cards will apply from January 1, 2014 in all football games run by the GAA. There will be no trial period and this rule cannot be changed except by a two-thirds majority at a future Congress.

So the inevitable whinging by some managers and players is a waste of time.

Some people have said that the black-card penalty in the closing stages of a game is no real punishment. Well, tell that to Monaghan. Cavanagh's yellow card was issued in the 49th minute and the subsequent free closed the gap to one point, 0-11 to 0-10.

In the final 20 minutes, Tyrone closed out the game to win by two points, with the final and crucial score kicked by Cavanagh.

Now supposing, under the new regime, it was a black card instead of a yellow Cavanagh got. He would have been sent off, with a replacement coming on.

But at that point Tyrone were hanging on for dear life and Cavanagh was the best player on the field by a mile.

Already Martin Penrose had been sent off and Joe McMahon was off injured while, five minutes after the Cavanagh incident, Stephen O'Neill was withdrawn.

With 20 minutes to go, Sean Cavanagh was absolutely fundamental to the Tyrone team, so imagine if he had been sent off with 20 minutes to play? Black cards no punishment?

And by the way, Cavanagh has always been a strong proponent of the use of the black card, as he has often been the victim of cynical fouling.

Only after this incident are the majority of football people realising what the black cards will really mean.

Players and managers will simply have to change their ways to avoid incurring black cards.

These are the first steps in controlling, and eventually eliminating, blatant cynical play, which has been part and parcel of football with all county teams over the decades.

If further changes are required, I am sure the GAA will legislate for that at a future time.

* Eugene McGee is chairman of the Football Review Committee.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/eugene-mcgee-black-card-potent-weapon-in-fight-against-cynicism-29474622.html

[Bord na Mona man]

Notice how Eugene never mentions how Sean Cavanagh would have gotten Darren Hughes 'sent off' on a black card by sneakily faking a dragging down.
The black card will get kicked out again for the 3rd time. Let's hope there aren't too many serious injustices caused by it along the way though.

[AZOffaly]

Why did they not include the fouls that pull or drag a player back, but do not actually throw him to the ground. That was a stupid oversight.

[omagh_gael]

Although Cavanagh kicked the last score he was largely anonymous for those last twenty minutes. He put in epic performances for three weekends running and it was showing. If he had  been black carded Plunkett Kane or Aiden Cassidy would have filled the gap, both of whom contributed more in the closing stages than Sean as they were coming on 'fresh.'

[lenny]

Although Cavanagh kicked the last score he was largely anonymous for those last twenty minutes. He put in epic performances for three weekends running and it was showing. If he had  been black carded Plunkett Kane or Aiden Cassidy would have filled the gap, both of whom contributed more in the closing stages than Sean as they were coming on 'fresh.'

The black card isnt the answer. It wont deter players from being cynical. The only deterrent is to hit teams on the scoreboard. If a team commits a cynical foul anywhere on the pitch (ie a drag down/rugby tackle like the one cavanagh did) then award a 20m free in front of the posts. If the cynical foul is committed close to goals and denies a clear goalscoring opportunity a penalty kick should be awarded. The rationale being if a chance to score a goal has been prevented by cynical means then the team should be given the chance to score the goalEven in soccer players will still commit a foul to prevent a goal being scored when they know they will receive a red card. The card in itself is not enough of a deterrent. If a penalty is going to be awarded the potential transgressor will think twice. If monaghan were going to be given a penalty for the foul on mcmanus then cavanagh might have thought twice and made more of an effort to get back and get a block in.