Belfast rioting over removal of Union Jack

[armaghniac]

Hardy, there is no doubt that this is problem for everyone, but you have to make the best of bad job.

[gallsman]

Good article in the Guardian today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/belfast-rioting-loyalists-politicians-union-flag?intcmp=239

I particularly thought this comment hit the nail on the head:

"Like the poor whites in the American south, the working class Protestants were sold some strange superiority over others and was entrenched in law and society at large to prevent them seeing the real enemy - the rich. Who cares if you were scraping by on a wage from Harland & Wolfe, at least you weren't a taig. And this is the problem, the very root of it. Everyone else won from the peace process, they are the only losers. The middle class Unionists got peace and normality (seeing an Army patrol in full battle gear patrolling the streets of a UK city is still one of the biggest shocks growing up), a chance of inward investment and money making opportunities. The Nationalist community also got peace, normality and finally achieved the aims of the civil rights movement which had existed prior to the Troubles. However the civil rights victory of the Nationalists stripped away the one thing that kept the working class Unionists above someone, and as such they lost out. How can any political party seriously address the objectives of a group of people of people who more-or-less want things to return to how they were when they could happily get on with hating and discriminating against Catholics? It is like advocating addressing the poor whites of the American south's problems by a return to the Jim Crow laws. Instead what needs to happen is a massive investment in traditional Unionist working class areas so that they can see they have benefited too, even if they can no longer stop their Orange walk outside a chapel and let rip with the Sash. No peace will ever hold without engaging all.

The biggest worry is that Loyalist terrorists are desperate to stir up more violence from dissident Republicans. Dissident Republicans will always have the British to rail and 'fight' against (unless we see a united Ireland), the 'cause' for these bellends is always there. However their mirror image on the Loyalist side need an active armed Republican threat to justify their existence and give them a 'cause'. Who or what is the UVF or UDA defending if there is no 'threat' to the Protestant community or the constitutional status of Northern Ireland?

What many in Great Britain forget or never know is that the Troubles started when Gusty Spence's UVF starting killing Catholics for well, being Catholics. They feared that that 50 year anniversary of the Easter Rising would inspire a new wave of IRA activity (which had more or less died away after the Border campaign of the 50s). They also forget that the British Army was dispatched to the streets of NI to prevent / halt the ethnic cleansing of the Catholic Nationalist community. On the mainland the prevalent view is they were sent there to fight the IRA. None of that is vital to this debate, it is just there to remind people that NI's problems are much more intricate than some violent idiots who are influenced by stone-age theology."

[AZOffaly]

I'm sorry, but do people really think that busness people in China, Japan or even most of the USA make a distinction between nationalist areas, loyalist areas and Neverland? The impact of this carry-on will be negative for everyone in the North and even for the rest of us as well, as the world's business classes watch what, to them, is a bunch mediaeval Irish people acting Balkan only worse, throw the InvestNI and IDA proposals in the bin and call Poland.

I would actually say that most business people, or decision makers in business, do understand that the ROI is different to the NI from a jurisdictional perspective. What usually surprises them is that Belfast is on the same Island, and so close to Dublin.

[ziggysego]

I'm sorry, but do people really think that busness people in China, Japan or even most of the USA make a distinction between nationalist areas, loyalist areas and Neverland? The impact of this carry-on will be negative for everyone in the North and even for the rest of us as well, as the world's business classes watch what, to them, is a bunch mediaeval Irish people acting Balkan only worse, throw the InvestNI and IDA proposals in the bin and call Poland.

I would actually say that most business people, or decision makers in business, do understand that the ROI is different to the NI from a jurisdictional perspective. What usually surprises them is that Belfast is on the same Island, and so close to Dublin.

Unless Neverland is RoI, Hardy never mentioned the south.

[nifan]

I'm sorry, but do people really think that busness people in China, Japan or even most of the USA make a distinction between nationalist areas, loyalist areas and Neverland? The impact of this carry-on will be negative for everyone in the North and even for the rest of us as well, as the world's business classes watch what, to them, is a bunch mediaeval Irish people acting Balkan only worse, throw the InvestNI and IDA proposals in the bin and call Poland.

I would actually say that most business people, or decision makers in business, do understand that the ROI is different to the NI from a jurisdictional perspective. What usually surprises them is that Belfast is on the same Island, and so close to Dublin.

They would certainly be aware of the corporation tax differences im sure....

[tyssam5]

Good article in the Guardian today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/belfast-rioting-loyalists-politicians-union-flag?intcmp=239

I particularly thought this comment hit the nail on the head:

"Like the poor whites in the American south, the working class Protestants were sold some strange superiority over others and was entrenched in law and society at large to prevent them seeing the real enemy - the rich. Who cares if you were scraping by on a wage from Harland & Wolfe, at least you weren't a taig. And this is the problem, the very root of it. Everyone else won from the peace process, they are the only losers. The middle class Unionists got peace and normality (seeing an Army patrol in full battle gear patrolling the streets of a UK city is still one of the biggest shocks growing up), a chance of inward investment and money making opportunities. The Nationalist community also got peace, normality and finally achieved the aims of the civil rights movement which had existed prior to the Troubles. However the civil rights victory of the Nationalists stripped away the one thing that kept the working class Unionists above someone, and as such they lost out. How can any political party seriously address the objectives of a group of people of people who more-or-less want things to return to how they were when they could happily get on with hating and discriminating against Catholics? It is like advocating addressing the poor whites of the American south's problems by a return to the Jim Crow laws. Instead what needs to happen is a massive investment in traditional Unionist working class areas so that they can see they have benefited too, even if they can no longer stop their Orange walk outside a chapel and let rip with the Sash. No peace will ever hold without engaging all.

The biggest worry is that Loyalist terrorists are desperate to stir up more violence from dissident Republicans. Dissident Republicans will always have the British to rail and 'fight' against (unless we see a united Ireland), the 'cause' for these bellends is always there. However their mirror image on the Loyalist side need an active armed Republican threat to justify their existence and give them a 'cause'. Who or what is the UVF or UDA defending if there is no 'threat' to the Protestant community or the constitutional status of Northern Ireland?

What many in Great Britain forget or never know is that the Troubles started when Gusty Spence's UVF starting killing Catholics for well, being Catholics. They feared that that 50 year anniversary of the Easter Rising would inspire a new wave of IRA activity (which had more or less died away after the Border campaign of the 50s). They also forget that the British Army was dispatched to the streets of NI to prevent / halt the ethnic cleansing of the Catholic Nationalist community. On the mainland the prevalent view is they were sent there to fight the IRA. None of that is vital to this debate, it is just there to remind people that NI's problems are much more intricate than some violent idiots who are influenced by stone-age theology."

"Instead what needs to happen is a massive investment in traditional Unionist working class areas so that they can see they have benefited too, even"

The main article points out that unemployment is still higher in Catholic areas. Let's not pretend this is about some sort of mythical working class Unionist deprivation.

[AZOffaly]

I'm sorry, but do people really think that busness people in China, Japan or even most of the USA make a distinction between nationalist areas, loyalist areas and Neverland? The impact of this carry-on will be negative for everyone in the North and even for the rest of us as well, as the world's business classes watch what, to them, is a bunch mediaeval Irish people acting Balkan only worse, throw the InvestNI and IDA proposals in the bin and call Poland.

I would actually say that most business people, or decision makers in business, do understand that the ROI is different to the NI from a jurisdictional perspective. What usually surprises them is that Belfast is on the same Island, and so close to Dublin.

Unless Neverland is RoI, Hardy never mentioned the south.

He actually does. He says it's bad news for the 'rest of us' and that the IDA proposals get fecked in the bin in favour of Poland. Unless he was on about Invest NI proposals which are co-sponsored by the IDA, then I think he means that foreign businessmen see Ireland and don't draw the distinction. I don't believe that is the case.

[armaghniac]

What usually surprises them is that Belfast is on the same Island,

I can see that these are investors who have done their research......

[Hardy]

I'm sorry, but do people really think that busness people in China, Japan or even most of the USA make a distinction between nationalist areas, loyalist areas and Neverland? The impact of this carry-on will be negative for everyone in the North and even for the rest of us as well, as the world's business classes watch what, to them, is a bunch mediaeval Irish people acting Balkan only worse, throw the InvestNI and IDA proposals in the bin and call Poland.

I would actually say that most business people, or decision makers in business, do understand that the ROI is different to the NI from a jurisdictional perspective. What usually surprises them is that Belfast is on the same Island, and so close to Dublin.

Unless Neverland is RoI, Hardy never mentioned the south.

He actually does. He says it's bad news for the 'rest of us' and that the IDA proposals get fecked in the bin in favour of Poland. Unless he was on about Invest NI proposals which are co-sponsored by the IDA, then I think he means that foreign businessmen see Ireland and don't draw the distinction. I don't believe that is the case.

For clarity - yes that's what I was saying. Of course, you're right, AZ and at least some foreign business people are fully au fait - especially those who have been worked by the IDA/InvestNI. But there is a continuum of awareness and there are a lot of potential inward investors, particularly in China and in Asia generally, especially those who haven't yet started the selection process, who hardly know where Ireland is, never mind what a nationalist is or what a loyalist is, never mind the nuances of who the protesters are, which areas they come from or what they're protesting about. Not to mention the confusion about our separate identity that comes with these Irish rioters carrying Union Jacks.

"Ireland? Hooded neanderthals rioting in the street, looking like English football hooligans? No thanks. What's the number of the Shanghai Polish IDA office?"

[heganboy]

Just a couple of points, having been involved in a few of these foreign investments, i will tell you that most people know the difference between the north and the south, especially those who are involved in the location selection process. The issue is often that the decision makers on location are often not involved in researching the venues.

People are very sensitive to any escalation of news being made for the wrong reasons- usually because someone on their board of directors will say "I told you to invest in South Carolina creating American jobs, but instead you went and put an office in Belfast creating foreign jobs and they're blowing each other up there and you're putting our staff and our brand at risk"

I have not heard of a single case where the IDA worked with Invest NI.

I woud say that your nationalist leader is more likely to bring about a united Ireland by Monday morning than get an international company to invest in a "nationalist" area as a better choice than any other. Any unrest concerns and they will choose a different jurisdiction. But that is just an opinion.

And where is the money coming from for this:

nationalist areas should promote themselves as good places to do business, with good schools and positive forward looking people.

?
Will that be funded by the nationalist councils, or the nationalist political parties? Higher taxes in those areas? Who will pay for international representatives, pay for companies visits, and organize meetings with existing businesses, retain the accountancy, location service consultancy and recruitment specialists that are required to get the first meeting with someone considering direct foreign investment, and then get them sufficiently interested that this nationalist area of which you speak can compete with all the other venues under consideration? to be absolutely clear these other areas usually funded by say the Government of Spain/ Portugal/ Poland with massive tax and job creation subsidies and thats just in the EU. You go outside of the EU and you can get paid to set up in certain countries (just to be clear usually warmer and without the same civil and political distractions)

Who is going to listen to and respond to the same crap from the Belfast telegraph and Irish news or the mourne observer's business correspondent saying 20 minutes after the new inward investment office is opened "we spent all this money and you haven't created any jobs yet" and try and explain that it takes about a year to find an opportunity, the investment cycle is typically 24-36 months and a conversion rate of 1 out of every 10 visits is exceptional? Or admit that its a hard sell to get them to come to Belfast, given the history of the last 40 years, and congratulate them on any success story.

Since political progression is going to be away from unionism, places like Newry and Derry can move seamlessly to new arrangements in a pro-business United Ireland.

The only problem is that most nationalist "leaders" have neither the wit to realise this, nor the credibility to bring it about.

Ah- I see what you mean- maybe some new incoming soon to be elected genius Newry and Mourne SF councillor with wit and credibility could bring this all about. You're absolutely correct- all good- carry on...

[armaghniac]

Ah- I see what you mean- maybe some new incoming soon to be elected genius Newry and Mourne SF councillor with wit and credibility could bring this all about. You're absolutely correct- all good- carry on...

I made the mistake here of being slightly positive in tone, which inevitably flushes out the begrudgers to sneer.

I'm not talking about international investment of the blue sky variety, this publicity will kill of NI for that. There is other economic activity and some people are closer to the problem than others. Paypal might open a facility in Newry that works with its Dundalk office, or a service provider to Paypal, and these would know the difference.

[The Iceman]

I talked to a lad who says he doesn't relate with the Union Jack, but understands people's pain and his parent's pain especially of all things british being slowly eroded.
He agreed that there is a small minority of people claiming to have the voice of the people when they really dont.
He did say this was all Sinn Feins fault for stirring the pot and even bringing the flying of the flag to vote.

Not sure where this all finishes up but he did say that the circles he moves in all believe this will descend into harsher violence and someone eventually will be killed.

[heganboy]

I made the mistake here of being slightly positive in tone, which inevitably flushes out the begrudgers to sneer.

no, I am quite sure the sneering is not at your positive tone nor is there any begrudgery, bing positive wasn't your mistake at all...

I'm not talking about international investment of the blue sky variety, this publicity will kill of NI for that. There is other economic activity and some people are closer to the problem than others. Paypal might open a facility in Newry that works with its Dundalk office, or a service provider to Paypal, and these would know the difference.

Are you suggesting ebay UK set up in Newry? can you give me a good reason why? What would they have in Newry that isnt available to them 10 miles down the road in their other office? Or in their other UK offices? Why would one of their suppliers not already be in place to supply the Dundalk office?

Not sure what "publicity will kill of NI" means, nor what you mean by "international investment of the blue sky variety" nor which people are closer to problem than others. In fact you know what- I have no idea what any of your post means in any real world-  sorry

[Tony Baloney]

Drove through Portadown this evening about 7.30. Disappointing turnout for the lads - 50 or 60 and 4 or 5 police Landrovers.

[BennyHarp]

They'll be kicking off tonight over this!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/news/article-2260116/Union-Jack-disappears-packs-Hovis-baker-breaks-promise-use-British-wheat-poor-UK-harvest.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490