All Ireland senior football final 2012 Donegal v Mayo

[heffo]

Personally, i don't think Brolly's comments had anything to do with the two Mayo players getting booked in the first couple of minutes, Referees are never influenced by the Media. And besides the comments were made on a Wednesday afternoon, not enough time for the referee do dwell on or eek into the subconscious. The same comments were made by McGuinness about Kildare in the AI QF in 2011, so i don't see the big deal. It's just idle comment!

I think Brolly knew exactly what he was doing.

However I also agree with Stephenite, Horan should say nothing until he has won Sam. Until then we are the easy target for the likes of Brolly.

I believe a back room coach from Mayo should have came out publicly on the Thursday and upped the anti on Brolly statement saying he was influencing the refereeing and call the referees bluff. 

Would've looked a bit silly & hypocritical after what was said before the semi-final.

It is one thing expressing concern regarding the appointment of a referee with a history of controversy involving your team, e.g. this goes on all the time in soccer, it is a different thing for a supposedly neutral pundit to stick his oar completely in on one side. I understand the Dubs being a bit sensitive on this but it wasn't an action against them, it was a genuine problem with a particular ref.

Brolly's was an attack on one of the teams, it didn't matter who the ref was, his agenda was against Mayo.

Pundits on TSG aren't neutral though - neither are commentators.

E.g - Colm O'Rourke - Dublin will be beaten and their fans will be in the pub in time to watch their second favourite team play Ecquador

E.g - Kevin McStay - 'Oh no, no, no, he can't, I can't believe he's doing this, he's given Dublin a free

I can give a thousand more example too to bias from pundits and commentators.

The end result is the same - putting pressure on a referee ahead of a game to acheive a particular result. You can't have it both ways.

I don't believe Dubs are the least bit sensitive on the issue - Mayo won fair and square. Just pointing out the hypocricy.

Would you mind telling me Heffo, where the hypocrisy is?
I see no connection whatever between Joe Brolly going on a one-man campaign to vilify Mayo's style of play and some other commentators reacting to specific incidents.
It would be stretching the imagination, well, mine anyway, to say that O'Rourke, McStay or anyone one else was deliberately trying to influence any referee's decisions.
O'Rourke in his own droll way can be very sarcastic at times and he has had more goes at Mayo down the years than he's had at Dublin and at the time he said this, the Dubs were gettin' bet out the gate.
Sarcastic yes but deliberate policy to influence any ref at any time. Hardly, IMO.
Brolly had a lot more to say about Mayo's game plan than he said on TSG, a damn sight worse.
There was nothing cynical or premeditated about the wild, clumsy tackles a number of Mato players put in in the Dubs' match or in the AI either. I'm not making excuses for any of them but if Brolly is to be believed, mayo have taken cynicism to a new level.
Brolly was very critical of Donegal's tactics in 2011 and he lampooned the Dubs as 'the nearly men' when they imploded year after year before making the breakthrough in 2011.
No other commentator/pundit I know of ever went to the same length as Brolly to  demonise any team he takes a dislike to.
In Mayo's case this year, he is the only one I can recall who accused them of adopting a cynical, pre-planned policy of deliberately fouling as part of their overall approach.

The hypocricy (in my opinion) is on the one hand getting local Mayo journalists to ask you soft questions so you can raise the issue of Joe McQuillan, put pressure on the referee ahead of the Semi-final and get the desired result. The talk was all over the media (ignoring his performance when he reffed us v Tyrone in 2010 and he gave them a staggering amount of undeserved frees + the fact he should have given a penalty for Brosnan handling on the ground).

Then whinging when someone else uses the media or his position in the media to attempt to influence a referee.

Exact same thing in my opinion.

This isn't the supreme court - Brolly and the rest of them are never neutral.

[Lar Naparka]

There was nothing cynical or premeditated about the wild, clumsy tackles a number of Mato players put in in the Dubs' match or in the AI either.

*ahem*
So there was nothing premeditated to the fact that Mark McHugh, Karl Lacey and Michael Murphy all got "wild, clumsy" tackles in the opening period of the AI final?
Nothing wrong with trying to lay down your marker IMO, but don't pretend that it's a coincidence that our best players are the ones that shipped these fouls.

And *ahem* to you also.

Donegal started at a blistering pace and had gone 2-01 up after a few minutes. Mayo were lucky it wasn't 3-01 to nil before they got off their marks. Memories of '04 and '06 were on their minds and the whole lot of them were at panic stations before they got into the game at all.

Mark McHugh, Karl Lacey and Michael Murphy all got "wild, clumsy" tackles in that  opening period because they were running their markers ragged and their tackles too place in full view of the referee. There was nothing pre-planned or coordinated in them. It was a case of everyman for himself.

[muppet]

Pundits on TSG aren't neutral though - neither are commentators.

E.g - Colm O'Rourke - Dublin will be beaten and their fans will be in the pub in time to watch their second favourite team play Ecquador

E.g - Kevin McStay - 'Oh no, no, no, he can't, I can't believe he's doing this, he's given Dublin a free

I can give a thousand more example too to bias from pundits and commentators.

The end result is the same - putting pressure on a referee ahead of a game to acheive a particular result. You can't have it both ways.

I don't believe Dubs are the least bit sensitive on the issue - Mayo won fair and square. Just pointing out the hypocricy.

But Brolly wasn't on the Sunday Game, he did it on a Wednesday.

[heffo]

Pundits on TSG aren't neutral though - neither are commentators.

E.g - Colm O'Rourke - Dublin will be beaten and their fans will be in the pub in time to watch their second favourite team play Ecquador

E.g - Kevin McStay - 'Oh no, no, no, he can't, I can't believe he's doing this, he's given Dublin a free

I can give a thousand more example too to bias from pundits and commentators.

The end result is the same - putting pressure on a referee ahead of a game to acheive a particular result. You can't have it both ways.

I don't believe Dubs are the least bit sensitive on the issue - Mayo won fair and square. Just pointing out the hypocricy.

But Brolly wasn't on the Sunday Game, he did it on a Wednesday.

Whether he did it from a pulpit, his Gaelic life column or The Mail on Sunday - the principle is still the same imo.

Manipulate the media for your own purposes ahead of the semi-final.

Complain when someone else does the same ahead of the final.

[muppet]

Pundits on TSG aren't neutral though - neither are commentators.

E.g - Colm O'Rourke - Dublin will be beaten and their fans will be in the pub in time to watch their second favourite team play Ecquador

E.g - Kevin McStay - 'Oh no, no, no, he can't, I can't believe he's doing this, he's given Dublin a free

I can give a thousand more example too to bias from pundits and commentators.

The end result is the same - putting pressure on a referee ahead of a game to acheive a particular result. You can't have it both ways.

I don't believe Dubs are the least bit sensitive on the issue - Mayo won fair and square. Just pointing out the hypocricy.

But Brolly wasn't on the Sunday Game, he did it on a Wednesday.

Whether he did it from a pulpit, his Gaelic life column or The Mail on Sunday - the principle is still the same imo.

Manipulate the media for your own purposes ahead of the semi-final.

Complain when someone else does the same ahead of the final.

Ok, so what were Brolly's purposes for manipulating the media before the game?

[heffo]

Pundits on TSG aren't neutral though - neither are commentators.

E.g - Colm O'Rourke - Dublin will be beaten and their fans will be in the pub in time to watch their second favourite team play Ecquador

E.g - Kevin McStay - 'Oh no, no, no, he can't, I can't believe he's doing this, he's given Dublin a free

I can give a thousand more example too to bias from pundits and commentators.

The end result is the same - putting pressure on a referee ahead of a game to acheive a particular result. You can't have it both ways.

I don't believe Dubs are the least bit sensitive on the issue - Mayo won fair and square. Just pointing out the hypocricy.

But Brolly wasn't on the Sunday Game, he did it on a Wednesday.

Whether he did it from a pulpit, his Gaelic life column or The Mail on Sunday - the principle is still the same imo.

Manipulate the media for your own purposes ahead of the semi-final.

Complain when someone else does the same ahead of the final.

Ok, so what were Brolly's purposes for manipulating the media before the game?

Couldn't tell you - maybe he wanted an Ulster team to win, maybe he just doesn't like Mayo.

The end result was the same. Hence my opinion of wherein lies the hypocricy.

[Lar Naparka]

The hypocricy (in my opinion) is on the one hand getting local Mayo journalists to ask you soft questions so you can raise the issue of Joe McQuillan, put pressure on the referee ahead of the Semi-final and get the desired result. The talk was all over the media (ignoring his performance when he reffed us v Tyrone in 2010 and he gave them a staggering amount of undeserved frees + the fact he should have given a penalty for Brosnan handling on the ground).

Then whinging when someone else uses the media or his position in the media to attempt to influence a referee.

Exact same thing in my opinion.

This isn't the supreme court - Brolly and the rest of them are never neutral.

That's fair enough, IMO.
Joe Mac did get a fair bit of stick not only from Mayo people but from a lot of other also before that semi.
However, I don't recall Horan or any of the Mayo management going public about their reservations before that game. Maybe they did but I wouldn't have agreed with them if that was the case. I'm not referring only to what Brolly had to say about Mayo's tactics during the Dublin match.
He was really quite vicious and gratuitously insulting in his reviews of the final in the Sindo and in the Derry Journal.
He had a right go at Alan Dillon in particular. Dillon, according to him, lacked moral fibre. He never showed up for the game and he and a habit of disappearing in every game when the pressure came on.
He was "a craven Mayo stereotype."  O'Rourke on the other hand in his piece in the Sindo, praised Mayo's efforts in the first half to get back into the game after the dreadful start and mentioned Dillon as one who took the fight to Donegal. Eugene McGee was another who praised Dillon's efforts also. I can't think offhand of any other but I have yet to see anyone of note who feels the whole goddamn lot are a bunch of cynical, whining losers.
In spite of Brolly's opinion of him, Dillon went on to win an All-Star.

[muppet]

Pundits on TSG aren't neutral though - neither are commentators.

E.g - Colm O'Rourke - Dublin will be beaten and their fans will be in the pub in time to watch their second favourite team play Ecquador

E.g - Kevin McStay - 'Oh no, no, no, he can't, I can't believe he's doing this, he's given Dublin a free

I can give a thousand more example too to bias from pundits and commentators.

The end result is the same - putting pressure on a referee ahead of a game to acheive a particular result. You can't have it both ways.

I don't believe Dubs are the least bit sensitive on the issue - Mayo won fair and square. Just pointing out the hypocricy.

But Brolly wasn't on the Sunday Game, he did it on a Wednesday.

Whether he did it from a pulpit, his Gaelic life column or The Mail on Sunday - the principle is still the same imo.

Manipulate the media for your own purposes ahead of the semi-final.

Complain when someone else does the same ahead of the final.

Ok, so what were Brolly's purposes for manipulating the media before the game?

Couldn't tell you - maybe he wanted an Ulster team to win, maybe he just doesn't like Mayo.

The end result was the same. Hence my opinion of wherein lies the hypocricy.

I note that you are not arguing against his bias. Interesting. Can I take it you agree he was biased?

[heffo]

Pundits on TSG aren't neutral though - neither are commentators.

E.g - Colm O'Rourke - Dublin will be beaten and their fans will be in the pub in time to watch their second favourite team play Ecquador

E.g - Kevin McStay - 'Oh no, no, no, he can't, I can't believe he's doing this, he's given Dublin a free

I can give a thousand more example too to bias from pundits and commentators.

The end result is the same - putting pressure on a referee ahead of a game to acheive a particular result. You can't have it both ways.

I don't believe Dubs are the least bit sensitive on the issue - Mayo won fair and square. Just pointing out the hypocricy.

But Brolly wasn't on the Sunday Game, he did it on a Wednesday.

Whether he did it from a pulpit, his Gaelic life column or The Mail on Sunday - the principle is still the same imo.

Manipulate the media for your own purposes ahead of the semi-final.

Complain when someone else does the same ahead of the final.

Ok, so what were Brolly's purposes for manipulating the media before the game?

Couldn't tell you - maybe he wanted an Ulster team to win, maybe he just doesn't like Mayo.

The end result was the same. Hence my opinion of wherein lies the hypocricy.

I note that you are not arguing against his bias. Interesting. Can I take it you agree he was biased?

I've no opinion on whether he's biased or not.

My contribution to the thread was the hypocricy of Horan.

[muppet]

I've no opinion on whether he's biased or not.

My contribution to the thread was the hypocricy of Horan.

"It was endemic throughout the field. It was seriously disruptive. It is a matter for them how they choose to play. It is, though cynical fouling. I'm talking about tactical fouls. That is supposed to be a yellow card offence.

I guess Horan took quotes like the above personally. I think I would too.

[heffo]

I've no opinion on whether he's biased or not.

My contribution to the thread was the hypocricy of Horan.

"It was endemic throughout the field. It was seriously disruptive. It is a matter for them how they choose to play. It is, though cynical fouling. I'm talking about tactical fouls. That is supposed to be a yellow card offence.

I guess Horan took quotes like the above personally. I think I would too.

Not sure why he would. Most counties cynically foul and haul down players. Dublin included. Don't think anyone who engages or sends a team out to cynically foul would take criticism of it personally.

The crux of his point (and my response to it) was Horan complaining about referee's being influenced ahead of games by a section of the media.

[muppet]

I've no opinion on whether he's biased or not.

My contribution to the thread was the hypocricy of Horan.

"It was endemic throughout the field. It was seriously disruptive. It is a matter for them how they choose to play. It is, though cynical fouling. I'm talking about tactical fouls. That is supposed to be a yellow card offence.

I guess Horan took quotes like the above personally. I think I would too.

Not sure why he would. Most counties cynically foul and haul down players. Dublin included. Don't think anyone who engages or sends a team out to cynically foul would take criticism of it personally.

The crux of his point (and my response to it) was Horan complaining about referee's being influenced ahead of games by a section of the media.

If that is true, can you explain Brolly's outburst then?

[heffo]

I've no opinion on whether he's biased or not.

My contribution to the thread was the hypocricy of Horan.

"It was endemic throughout the field. It was seriously disruptive. It is a matter for them how they choose to play. It is, though cynical fouling. I'm talking about tactical fouls. That is supposed to be a yellow card offence.

I guess Horan took quotes like the above personally. I think I would too.

Not sure why he would. Most counties cynically foul and haul down players. Dublin included. Don't think anyone who engages or sends a team out to cynically foul would take criticism of it personally.

The crux of his point (and my response to it) was Horan complaining about referee's being influenced ahead of games by a section of the media.

If that is true, can you explain Brolly's outburst then?

I've no time or interest in doing so.

I made the point about the hypocricy and I believe have backed up and demonstrated that.

You can agree or disagree with that point.

[muppet]

I've no opinion on whether he's biased or not.

My contribution to the thread was the hypocricy of Horan.

"It was endemic throughout the field. It was seriously disruptive. It is a matter for them how they choose to play. It is, though cynical fouling. I'm talking about tactical fouls. That is supposed to be a yellow card offence.

I guess Horan took quotes like the above personally. I think I would too.

Not sure why he would. Most counties cynically foul and haul down players. Dublin included. Don't think anyone who engages or sends a team out to cynically foul would take criticism of it personally.

The crux of his point (and my response to it) was Horan complaining about referee's being influenced ahead of games by a section of the media.

If that is true, can you explain Brolly's outburst then?

I've no time or interest in doing so.

I made the point about the hypocricy and I believe have backed up and demonstrated that.

You can agree or disagree with that point.

You also have really helped point out the nub of Brolly's misbehaviour.

[Sam2011]

John Fogarty does a good analysis on the interview and sums up my opinion on the interview in this article here:

Mayo start 2013 on the attack

Having a blast at RTE's Gaelic games coverage seems to be a rite of passage for top GAA officials.


In 2011, Jim McGuinness took The Sunday Game to task for comments following their Ulster game against Antrim.


At the end of last year, Dublin chief executive John Costello criticised the national broadcasters for what he perceived as a lack of Gaelic games coverage.


That's not to mention the seven inter-county managers who in 2011 initially refused to speak to RTE after sending a letter highlighting their alarm at the apparent downgrading of commentator Brian Carthy.


Nor is it considering former Dublin boss Tommy Lyon's dig at RTE and analyst Martin McHugh last year.


The latest attack by James Horan is nothing out of the ordinary even if it is coming from the usually mild-mannered Mayo manager.


McGuinness' ire was directed at Pat Spillane but just who was James Horan talking about when he said: "In a two-horse race, if you have the national broadcaster proclaiming about one team and one team only, that's going to influence officials and various things around the game.


"There should be no place for that type of biased discussion. It was completely unwarranted and incorrect. We'll eventually be proven right. Did it impact the game? It's hard to say."


We'll take an educated stab at this one and say Joe Brolly is the prime subject of Horan's disgruntlement.

In the build-up to the All-Ireland final, the RTE pundit spoke and wrote about Mayo's tactical fouling. This, in spite of Donegal who earlier in the summer could have been accused of the same against Tyrone and Kerry.


Brolly's cut at Mayo was a deep one. He told RTE Radio One three days before the final: "I had not noticed it during the Dublin game. I was conscious that they were pulling down the Dublin players as they were trying to mount attacks, but when I watched the video again the statistics were, even by modern standards, shocking.


"There were 27 times where a Dublin player was trying to work his way forward and he was simply held or pulled down.


"Of those 27 times there were 22 frees given by referee Joe McQuillan; three times he waved advantage and on three occasions he missed it altogether.


"But there was not a single yellow card, and it was a massive feature of the game that Mayo were able to disrupt Dublin in that way.

"It was endemic throughout the field. It was seriously disruptive. It is a matter for them how they choose to play. It is, though cynical fouling. I'm talking about tactical fouls. That is supposed to be a yellow card offence. It was difficult to see it on the day because obviously everyone was supporting Mayo."


Brolly is one of the most insightful pundits in the game but he does so a lot of the time wearing his Ulster hat. Kerry supporters need no reminding of that in the lead-up to the 2005 and '08 All-Ireland finals.


His forensic analysis of Mayo's dark arts wasn't extended to Donegal who committed 25 of 43 fouls and earned five yellow cards in their quarter-final win over Kerry.


Against Tyrone, Donegal fouled almost twice as many times as their opponents yet each team were handed out four yellow cards.


Horan's comments are ironic considering the amount of former Mayo players and managers who work with RTE and the wider media.


Martin Carney, although born in Donegal but very much an assimilated Mayo man, and Kevin McStay are the national broadcasters' leading game summarisers.


John Maughan works extensively with RTE Radio during the summer while Liam McHale either has contributed plenty on radio. Only David Brady said anything.


Not that Horan would expect it but from the horde of former Mayo players working in the press, only one took exception to what Brolly said about Mayo.


The same can't be said of McHugh in regards to McGuinness who played a blinder for Donegal last year. Even if he was outnumbered, he certainly wasn't outgunned.


If Brolly was the bad cop, he was the good one. In the All-Ireland series up to the final, he couldn't see Donegal beating anyone. Cork were going to win, Kerry were going to win. But did he actually believe it?   McHugh's son Mark is, of course, a mainstay in the team and the 1992 All-Ireland winner has never made any secret of his friendship with McGuinness.


What Horan's comments have done is raise the temperature of their rivalry with Donegal. The embers of September had been well and truly stoked by Aidan O'Shea before Christmas when he accused the All-Ireland champions of cynical play in the final.


"I don't just think it, (I know it), It's obvious if you look back over the tape," he said. "You can see the referee brought the ball up on numerous occasions but it's only 15 yards. It made no difference to Donegal because they get players behind the ball."


McGuinness' response to O'Shea's claim was a mixture of bewilderment and indignation: "He felt we were cynical!"   At social occasions since September, aggrieved Donegal players haven't been afraid to confront those from other teams who have questioned their style in the press. This writer knows of one incident over the winter. Expect some sulphur, then, when the counties meet in Castlebar on March 24.

What can't be lost here either is Horan himself is no daw when it comes to working the media for his own benefit.


Before the All-Ireland semi-final against Dublin which was refereed by Joe McQuillan, he took full advantage of a question about the amount of Dublin's 2011 Championship games the Cavan man had officiated in (four of six games) and the rumours of him taking charging of in-house Dublin matches.


"I have a lot of Kerry friends from last year that weren't too happy with some of his decisions but sin scéal eile. The referee has been appointed. The review committee is there to judge referees and that's not for us to do. I'm sure refereeing A versus B games will have no bearing on his performance against us in Croker."


As well as being a sports psychologist with Mayo, Kieran Shannon of this parish is also an award-winning journalist. It would be remiss not to suggest some pearls of wisdom haven't been passed on.

It's becoming more obvious just how much the media mean to inter-county managements. Just look at how Donegal's has used it to rally against some of the Football Review Committee proposals.


What Horan has done is laid down a marker. Mayo, for so long people's second favourite team because of their style with a healthy dollop of their perennial bridesmaid tag, aren't going to tolerate pity or uber-criticism. It's a path McGuinness has already taken.
  Mayo are an upward curve, following up a semi-final appearance with a final one. They are entitled to the respect Horan feels they deserve.


Isn't that more refreshing than playing the poor mouth?



I think the reason why there is such a reaction to the article is because Horan is known as a nice timid man my who rarely makes comments the have the potiental to become explosive, like previous Mayo teams.
You really need to read the full article in the Western to get a proper grip on the interview. It is essentially an interview reviewing the 2012 season. Horan is asked a broad range of questions including, the FBD league, the national league, the progress of Barry Moran, the Conor Mortimer issue, the national media, the All-Ireland final, to name a few.
Don't under estimate the astuteness of Horan. There's more to this interview than people think like the one he done before the Dublin game. You need to read between the lines.
Personnally, I was glad Horan came out and gave his honest opinion of the media as we've put up with the same sh**e from them every year. He was given the opportunity before the final to blast the media but he merely said look at the stats and your opinion may be different of us. This is the right time of year to be lashing out as the players have not got into the serious stuff yet so it's not a big deal if they're distracted by this taboo. Again Horan's cute nature coming to the fore. As Fogarty says he's an awarding wining journalist in his back room team and he wouldn't shy away from a few tips from him I'm sure.
I'm a big fan of Horan and I believe he's the man to lead us to glory but I as suprised he laid the blame of the two goals on certain players. Although the play leading up to the goals were partly to blame for the goals, I was diappointed he didn't take some of the blame for the goals as the match-ups were clearly wrong as he changed them a few minutes after the goals. Maybe he said all of this to protect Keane as its only his first year playing for Mayo. As I've said already don't under estimate the shrewdness of James.