All Ireland senior football final 2012 Donegal v Mayo

[Syferus]

'Mon John boy, we need you back to 'fix' us, quit the article writing 

[moysider]

That's certainly an alternate view to things. Another would be that Mayos weaknesses were identified correctly and targeted successfully.

I realise this is the smugness that has to be endured when we 're beaten in an AI final - by anybody.

Care to elaborate?

[moysider]

'Mon John boy, we need you back to 'fix' us, quit the article writing 

Careful for what you wish for, you might just ................. 

[IolarCoisCuain]

'Mon John boy, we need you back to 'fix' us, quit the article writing 

Careful for what you wish for, you might just ................. 

I heard Johnno was on his way to the Ros.

As for Maughan, I'd say he sent that email to himself. I just kinda get the feeling.

[Syferus]

'Mon John boy, we need you back to 'fix' us, quit the article writing 

Careful for what you wish for, you might just ................. 

I heard Johnno was on his way to the Ros.

As for Maughan, I'd say he sent that email to himself. I just kinda get the feeling.

Johnno's been in the Ros almost since he was born, he just can't admit it to himself. 

It'd be great to have such a passionate county man for the job, though. None of that outsider craic. Down with them.

[dlgael]

That's certainly an alternate view to things. Another would be that Mayos weaknesses were identified correctly and targeted successfully.

I realise this is the smugness that has to be endured when we 're beaten in an AI final - by anybody.

Care to elaborate?

Sure. Mayos full back line is small in stature and suspect under the high ball. Donegal went for the jugular. Secondly Mayo lacked the forwards to craft a goal scoring opportunity so that door was shut from half time. Mayo closed a 7 point gap to 3 in the first half and a 6 point gap to 4 in the 2nd half. The main reason that Donegal appeared beatable in the final was nerves. Massive nerves throughout the first half. I am not discounting Mayos achievements in 2012. I just don't think they have the full back line or full forward line to win big. I saw Mayo twice this year in the flesh and watched 3 of their championship matches so I'm not basing this on the final alone.

[Lar Naparka]

A letter from an American friend
Mayo Advertiser, October 05, 2012.

By John Maughan


I regularly email a friend of mine in the US regarding the progress of the Mayo team. He is quite fanatical about Mayo football and regularly travels 'home' to see his beloved county play in the championship. He could not travel for the All-Ireland but did watch it live on TV. He sought my views on the game. I have decided to let you see his response to my email where I suggested that Mayo were beaten by a better team on the day.

"I am afraid you have been infected with the same 'tragic philosophy' that has grown up in Mayo over the years. I believe we could have won! We just didn't play our own game, end of story. After defeats we have grown used to making excuses and I see by your e-mail, here we go again! You mention the full forward line in comparison to Donegal. If games were played on paper there would be no need for a field! Hey, we beat Dublin who had a good forward line and where was the Donegal forward line after the first 10 minutes. We actually outscored Donegal in the remaining 60 minutes by three points! I don't give any credit to the "after game" philosophies to soothe our pain. We have been at that too long. If I were manager I would take that team into the meeting place at the beginning of the new season and literally tell them we threw it away and let's not have any "after" excuses this year. I forgive James Horan for his misplaced strategy. It blew up in his face and I hope he has learned. The great backs we had all year sort of disappeared at least for 15 minutes and the forwards were left throughout the game — as I saw it — without the familiar runs of the half backs. John, we have to blow away this "ah, sure ....etc" philosophy. I said at the beginning of the year I thought we have a right good team, particularly after their victory over Leitrim. We sparkled against Down and Dublin. John, we HAD THE ABILITY TO WIN IT ALL. Trouble of waiting till next year is that I am getting older and wondering if I will ever see the day again! Little did I know that September 23, 1951 would be a day of joy that would have to last a lifetime. There had to be disappointments all over the place. Nearly every member of my family was there last Sunday, scrounging tickets everywhere and got quite a few in Cork from their cousins. I read there were people from Australia who had come with great hope. They went home in tears. Pauric Carney — the great Mayo player — a legend has expressed the opinion he can't understand what has happened to the Mayo spirit. I think a lot of it is we take defeats too easily. If we suffered more we might not be so tolerant of losing and making excuses. It was Henry Ford who said 'if you believe you can do it, you will, if you don't believe then you won't.' You and I have seen so many examples in football of that saying. Hopefully we will discover a good man or two in the off season, but I say those guys are young and they CAN do it. (Did I ever tell you about my years with Craobh Rua in Sligo? Everybody said when we got the club going again we had no chance. We dug up players everywhere and won two championships. Somebody believed!) Enough!"

This email from my friend has resonated with me. It has made me think about how close Mayo are to an All-Ireland title. Over recent years we have gradually managed to raise the profile of the county and the expectations of supporters, to levels that are a long way off the earlier status quo. Here I refer to the decade of the seventies during which Mayo did not get to perform championship football in Croke Park at all. It was a dark time for Mayo football. When we did eventually make the breakthrough in the early eighties, we simply were not ready to win an All-Ireland. Now we know what competing at this level is all about. No team really outplays a Mayo team these days. Mayo over the past few years have become one of the most consistent counties in the country and, notwithstanding the fact that luck and timing have not been kind to us, we are very definitely getting closer to the Holy Grail.



Youth is on our side in the battle for glory

This current Mayo side has a very formidable defensive system with quality players who luckily have plenty of youth on their side. Ger Cafferkey and Keith Higgins are two players that are recognised among their peer group as real quality. Kevin Keane, despite a shaky opening 10 minutes in the All-Ireland, displayed great character by having a massive game after being partly responsible for conceding a couple of early scores. Lesser players would have been looking towards the side line for a rescue, but not this Covey. He will be a massive player for Mayo into the future.

Our half back line has two All Star nominations... No need to elaborate here. We are more than capable of holding our own at midfield, albeit this sector could do with a player with greater mobility. The one area that needs strengthening is the full forward line. We have struggled to put up scores when faced by teams who pay a particular emphasis on defence. Andy Moran, when he recovers from his knee injury, will strengthen this line considerably and if the likes of Conor O'Shea and/or Cathal Carolan, both members of the current squad, can make an impression over the next few months, I expect they will have lots to offer a Mayo forward line.

I have spoken to a few in Castlebar Mitchel's who think that, if he could put on a few Kgs, Tom King has the potential to make it. Evan Regan could also come into the reckoning in the near future as he showed lots of classy touches at underage level. If a couple of those lads could step up to the mark then a really bright future beckons with no reason why Mayo cannot be back at HQ next year with another good chance of landing the big prize.

Well, it didn't resonate with me. Talk about stating the obvious while missing the point.
I think John was stuck for copy to fill a space when he posted this. He then goes on to comment and what he has to say contradicts the gist of this email.
However, I think the Dark Ages  were the years 2007-2010. The embarrassment in Sligo followed by the humiliation in Longford marked our annus horribilis- for me anyway. JH took over at the lowest point I can ever recall and what he has achieved since is quite remarkable. Like JM, he appears to have made a few mistakes in his first final and, again like JM, these shouldn't be allowed to overshadow his achievements.
At the start of this season, most people, myself included, felt that getting to a QF would have been satisfactory and that a Semi appearance would have been a bonus. Sure, I'm disappointed but not depressed and I agree with JM's first two paragraphs. 
Can't comment on players I haven't seen so King and Regan are unknown quantities to me and I think there is no quick fix solution. GIven that Horan has been working with his present panel for two years, it will take something special if anybody new can force his way into the reckoning.

[moysider]

A letter from an American friend
Mayo Advertiser, October 05, 2012.

By John Maughan


I regularly email a friend of mine in the US regarding the progress of the Mayo team. He is quite fanatical about Mayo football and regularly travels 'home' to see his beloved county play in the championship. He could not travel for the All-Ireland but did watch it live on TV. He sought my views on the game. I have decided to let you see his response to my email where I suggested that Mayo were beaten by a better team on the day.

"I am afraid you have been infected with the same 'tragic philosophy' that has grown up in Mayo over the years. I believe we could have won! We just didn't play our own game, end of story. After defeats we have grown used to making excuses and I see by your e-mail, here we go again! You mention the full forward line in comparison to Donegal. If games were played on paper there would be no need for a field! Hey, we beat Dublin who had a good forward line and where was the Donegal forward line after the first 10 minutes. We actually outscored Donegal in the remaining 60 minutes by three points! I don't give any credit to the "after game" philosophies to soothe our pain. We have been at that too long. If I were manager I would take that team into the meeting place at the beginning of the new season and literally tell them we threw it away and let's not have any "after" excuses this year. I forgive James Horan for his misplaced strategy. It blew up in his face and I hope he has learned. The great backs we had all year sort of disappeared at least for 15 minutes and the forwards were left throughout the game — as I saw it — without the familiar runs of the half backs. John, we have to blow away this "ah, sure ....etc" philosophy. I said at the beginning of the year I thought we have a right good team, particularly after their victory over Leitrim. We sparkled against Down and Dublin. John, we HAD THE ABILITY TO WIN IT ALL. Trouble of waiting till next year is that I am getting older and wondering if I will ever see the day again! Little did I know that September 23, 1951 would be a day of joy that would have to last a lifetime. There had to be disappointments all over the place. Nearly every member of my family was there last Sunday, scrounging tickets everywhere and got quite a few in Cork from their cousins. I read there were people from Australia who had come with great hope. They went home in tears. Pauric Carney — the great Mayo player — a legend has expressed the opinion he can't understand what has happened to the Mayo spirit. I think a lot of it is we take defeats too easily. If we suffered more we might not be so tolerant of losing and making excuses. It was Henry Ford who said 'if you believe you can do it, you will, if you don't believe then you won't.' You and I have seen so many examples in football of that saying. Hopefully we will discover a good man or two in the off season, but I say those guys are young and they CAN do it. (Did I ever tell you about my years with Craobh Rua in Sligo? Everybody said when we got the club going again we had no chance. We dug up players everywhere and won two championships. Somebody believed!) Enough!"

This email from my friend has resonated with me. It has made me think about how close Mayo are to an All-Ireland title. Over recent years we have gradually managed to raise the profile of the county and the expectations of supporters, to levels that are a long way off the earlier status quo. Here I refer to the decade of the seventies during which Mayo did not get to perform championship football in Croke Park at all. It was a dark time for Mayo football. When we did eventually make the breakthrough in the early eighties, we simply were not ready to win an All-Ireland. Now we know what competing at this level is all about. No team really outplays a Mayo team these days. Mayo over the past few years have become one of the most consistent counties in the country and, notwithstanding the fact that luck and timing have not been kind to us, we are very definitely getting closer to the Holy Grail.



Youth is on our side in the battle for glory

This current Mayo side has a very formidable defensive system with quality players who luckily have plenty of youth on their side. Ger Cafferkey and Keith Higgins are two players that are recognised among their peer group as real quality. Kevin Keane, despite a shaky opening 10 minutes in the All-Ireland, displayed great character by having a massive game after being partly responsible for conceding a couple of early scores. Lesser players would have been looking towards the side line for a rescue, but not this Covey. He will be a massive player for Mayo into the future.

Our half back line has two All Star nominations... No need to elaborate here. We are more than capable of holding our own at midfield, albeit this sector could do with a player with greater mobility. The one area that needs strengthening is the full forward line. We have struggled to put up scores when faced by teams who pay a particular emphasis on defence. Andy Moran, when he recovers from his knee injury, will strengthen this line considerably and if the likes of Conor O'Shea and/or Cathal Carolan, both members of the current squad, can make an impression over the next few months, I expect they will have lots to offer a Mayo forward line.

I have spoken to a few in Castlebar Mitchel's who think that, if he could put on a few Kgs, Tom King has the potential to make it. Evan Regan could also come into the reckoning in the near future as he showed lots of classy touches at underage level. If a couple of those lads could step up to the mark then a really bright future beckons with no reason why Mayo cannot be back at HQ next year with another good chance of landing the big prize.

Well, it didn't resonate with me. Talk about stating the obvious while missing the point.
I think John was stuck for copy to fill a space when he posted this. He then goes on to comment and what he has to say contradicts the gist of this email.
However, I think the Dark Ages  were the years 2007-2010. The embarrassment in Sligo followed by the humiliation in Longford marked our annus horribilis- for me anyway. JH took over at the lowest point I can ever recall and what he has achieved since is quite remarkable. Like JM, he appears to have made a few mistakes in his first final and, again like JM, these shouldn't be allowed to overshadow his achievements.
At the start of this season, most people, myself included, felt that getting to a QF would have been satisfactory and that a Semi appearance would have been a bonus. Sure, I'm disappointed but not depressed and I agree with JM's first two paragraphs. 
Can't comment on players I haven't seen so King and Regan are unknown quantities to me and I think there is no quick fix solution. GIven that Horan has been working with his present panel for two years, it will take something special if anybody new can force his way into the reckoning.

This simply doesn t stand up to scrutiny Lar.

Neither Boyle nor Conroy were in the panel 2011 and if Davitts had not had a fine year last year they mightn t have been involved this year either. Boyle is an All Star nomination. Conroy best of the inside forwards since he returned.

I don t think it will take much special to replace at least 3 starters from the AI final. In fact I believe that is a necessity. I don t know James Horan but I suspect he has one or two regrets about how the team developed after the league. I think we had alternatives and if we were a bit more radical we could have gone all the way. To progress we need to improve a few positions. Presuming they are fit the only probables going forward are Clarke, Higgins, Keane, Keegan, Boyle, O Sé, Moran, Dillon, O Connor, McLoughlin, Conroy and Andy Moran.

We don t need to find a nest of scoring forwards either. Donegal won with only 2 forwards. The McLoones, McBreartys, McHughs, etc were worker bees albeit very good worker bees.

[Lar Naparka]

This simply doesn t stand up to scrutiny Lar.

Neither Boyle nor Conroy were in the panel 2011 and if Davitts had not had a fine year last year they mightn t have been involved this year either. Boyle is an All Star nomination. Conroy best of the inside forwards since he returned.

I don t think it will take much special to replace at least 3 starters from the AI final. In fact I believe that is a necessity. I don t know James Horan but I suspect he has one or two regrets about how the team developed after the league. I think we had alternatives and if we were a bit more radical we could have gone all the way. To progress we need to improve a few positions. Presuming they are fit the only probables going forward are Clarke, Higgins, Keane, Keegan, Boyle, O Sé, Moran, Dillon, O Connor, McLoughlin, Conroy and Andy Moran.

We don t need to find a nest of scoring forwards either. Donegal won with only 2 forwards. The McLoones, McBreartys, McHughs, etc were worker bees albeit very good worker bees.

Sorry moy, I had accidentally removed "most of" which should have come before "present" when I was cutting and pasting and generally tidying up. The dog is an even thicker hoor than I am and  he was getting restless and I had just received a gentle reminder from The Boss that  unless I left the computer alone, I'd have to  graze the long acre if I wanted dinner. Unless I took the mutt for a walk, I'd have more to worry about than Mayo football!
Now, I fully agree that the panel could do with a few fresh faces and maybe a couple of the present subs could make it onto the first fifteen but James Horan is not the Blueshirt and the days of wholesale chopping and changing are over. I think Ronan McGarrity was a huge loss and so was Pat Harte. If the trio of McG, Harte and Andy are available for selection  next year, I'd be a lot happier.
I also felt that Richie Feeney was  worth a starting place this season but JH thought otherwise. He will be on the lookout for new talent and I expect he will try out a few newcomers when the FBD comes around.
BTW, I'd add Caff to my probables list.

[moysider]

This simply doesn t stand up to scrutiny Lar.

Neither Boyle nor Conroy were in the panel 2011 and if Davitts had not had a fine year last year they mightn t have been involved this year either. Boyle is an All Star nomination. Conroy best of the inside forwards since he returned.

I don t think it will take much special to replace at least 3 starters from the AI final. In fact I believe that is a necessity. I don t know James Horan but I suspect he has one or two regrets about how the team developed after the league. I think we had alternatives and if we were a bit more radical we could have gone all the way. To progress we need to improve a few positions. Presuming they are fit the only probables going forward are Clarke, Higgins, Keane, Keegan, Boyle, O Sé, Moran, Dillon, O Connor, McLoughlin, Conroy and Andy Moran.

We don t need to find a nest of scoring forwards either. Donegal won with only 2 forwards. The McLoones, McBreartys, McHughs, etc were worker bees albeit very good worker bees.

Sorry moy, I had accidentally removed "most of" which should have come before "present" when I was cutting and pasting and generally tidying up. The dog is an even thicker hoor than I am and  he was getting restless and I had just received a gentle reminder from The Boss that  unless I left the computer alone, I'd have to  graze the long acre if I wanted dinner. Unless I took the mutt for a walk, I'd have more to worry about than Mayo football!
Now, I fully agree that the panel could do with a few fresh faces and maybe a couple of the present subs could make it onto the first fifteen but James Horan is not the Blueshirt and the days of wholesale chopping and changing are over. I think Ronan McGarrity was a huge loss and so was Pat Harte. If the trio of McG, Harte and Andy are available for selection  next year, I'd be a lot happier.
I also felt that Richie Feeney was  worth a starting place this season but JH thought otherwise. He will be on the lookout for new talent and I expect he will try out a few newcomers when the FBD comes around.
BTW, I'd add Caff to my probables list.

Caff. yes of course. And SOS and Gibbons also will be around. Feeney could have been used more as well.
McGar appears to be finishing up but Harte will be back I expect. Others will come into the reckoning too. It s not about chopping and changing I don t think. Teams never stand still from one year to the next. If we can keep the good bits and add a bit we should develop. I expect many of the good bits will progress even more as well.

[bucko]

This simply doesn t stand up to scrutiny Lar.

Neither Boyle nor Conroy were in the panel 2011 and if Davitts had not had a fine year last year they mightn t have been involved this year either. Boyle is an All Star nomination. Conroy best of the inside forwards since he returned.

I don t think it will take much special to replace at least 3 starters from the AI final. In fact I believe that is a necessity. I don t know James Horan but I suspect he has one or two regrets about how the team developed after the league. I think we had alternatives and if we were a bit more radical we could have gone all the way. To progress we need to improve a few positions. Presuming they are fit the only probables going forward are Clarke, Higgins, Keane, Keegan, Boyle, O Sé, Moran, Dillon, O Connor, McLoughlin, Conroy and Andy Moran.

We don t need to find a nest of scoring forwards either. Donegal won with only 2 forwards. The McLoones, McBreartys, McHughs, etc were worker bees albeit very good worker bees.

Sorry moy, I had accidentally removed "most of" which should have come before "present" when I was cutting and pasting and generally tidying up. The dog is an even thicker hoor than I am and  he was getting restless and I had just received a gentle reminder from The Boss that  unless I left the computer alone, I'd have to  graze the long acre if I wanted dinner. Unless I took the mutt for a walk, I'd have more to worry about than Mayo football!
Now, I fully agree that the panel could do with a few fresh faces and maybe a couple of the present subs could make it onto the first fifteen but James Horan is not the Blueshirt and the days of wholesale chopping and changing are over. I think Ronan McGarrity was a huge loss and so was Pat Harte. If the trio of McG, Harte and Andy are available for selection  next year, I'd be a lot happier.
I also felt that Richie Feeney was  worth a starting place this season but JH thought otherwise. He will be on the lookout for new talent and I expect he will try out a few newcomers when the FBD comes around.
BTW, I'd add Caff to my probables list.

Caff. yes of course. And SOS and Gibbons also will be around. Feeney could have been used more as well.
McGar appears to be finishing up but Harte will be back I expect. Others will come into the reckoning too. It s not about chopping and changing I don t think. Teams never stand still from one year to the next. If we can keep the good bits and add a bit we should develop. I expect many of the good bits will progress even more as well.

Bit like a jigsaw puzzle. A lot of the pieces are there, most of it is put together. However there's one or two important pieces missing and and there's some uncertainty about where some others go or they're in the wrong place. Along with the guys returning, figuring out how best to use Higgins (centre half or wing back?) and AOS (midfield or CHF) is going to be key. Considering in the Final I thought that the few times that O'Shea was most effective when on the ball and running towards goal, maybe playing as CHF  come third midfielder may be the way to go, playing Moran with SOS or Gibbons. Just an idea.

[Zulu]

The one thing I thought Mayo should have done was to play a third midfielder as they lacked any top class full forward so sacrificing one wouldn't have mattered. I think they kept 3 up against Donegal to try and keep as many Donegal defenders as deep as possible and to force mchugh to cover the whole width of the pitch when playing sweeper.

Would Higgins at centre back and Vaughan as a third midfielder be an option. Vaughan plays midfield for his club does he not? And he could drop in as cover for Higgins to make his marauding runs. This would also give the Mayo midfield the mobility it currently lacks. McL, Dillon, Andy and O'Connor would be 4 of the forwards though O'Connor needs to do more from play. So your looking for a centre forward or, if you push Andy out a full forward for a a 2 man line.

[moysider]

The one thing I thought Mayo should have done was to play a third midfielder as they lacked any top class full forward so sacrificing one wouldn't have mattered. I think they kept 3 up against Donegal to try and keep as many Donegal defenders as deep as possible and to force mchugh to cover the whole width of the pitch when playing sweeper.

Would Higgins at centre back and Vaughan as a third midfielder be an option. Vaughan plays midfield for his club does he not? And he could drop in as cover for Higgins to make his marauding runs. This would also give the Mayo midfield the mobility it currently lacks. McL, Dillon, Andy and O'Connor would be 4 of the forwards though O'Connor needs to do more from play. So your looking for a centre forward or, if you push Andy out a full forward for a a 2 man line.

Keegan most likely to be 6 from now on. Higgins should heve been taken out to wing already.

[moysider]

According to the Western People today James Horan is considering his position.

There was talk yesterday alright that he had to be persuaded not to step down on Saturday.

[macdanger2]

Why?