Dublin v Mayo - AISF

[Hardy]

A bit like the Spillane assault incident, you can't condone it, but you know who to blame for creating the conditions that led to it. In this case it's the legion of cheats who have so misunderstood the reasons for playing amateur sport that they have made the feigning of injury a commonplace in the game. And they'll continue to do it until someone in Varley's position suffers a serious injury or worse as a result, or until we decide to eradicate this from the game. It's our choice.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Watching the game on Sunday, I felt that, while McQuillan was making lots of wrong calls, he still managed to get to the end without any major incident.
Since then, I've had a good luck at a video of the game and I've revised my opinion- he made an ass's haemes of it.
I'm not saying that all his wrong calls favoured the Dubs; he let Mayo lads away with a few double hops and he managed to yellow the wrong man even after consulting with his officials.
Maybe his linesmen and umpires were at fault in some cases also- the umpire on the nearest side should have spotted that McMenamon had shinned the ball over the line when a 45 was awarded to Dublin, which Clucko pointed. That was no fault of the Dubs but that point might well have proved crucial.
The umpires at the other end were up to their task either.
I don't know what led up to the incident where McMahon dropped Varley with an elbow jab but the umpires at the Dublin end should have been on the watch out for off the ball incidents. However, what happened next does concern me.
Varley was clearly stunned as he lay on the ground and O'Carroll proceeded  to grab him and dragged him to his feet and then gave him a few good shakes. That was an extremely dangerous thing to do as Varley could have had a brain or a spine injury. He put up no resistance and it should have been obvious to all that he was genuinely injured.
Yet McQuillan made no big deal of it. Neither did his umpires.
Thankfully, it appears that he wasn't seriously injured and is making a good recovery but things might have gone seriously wrong for him if he had been.  McStay in his commentary reckoned that O'Carroll should have been given a yellow card but it's going to take more than yellow cards to put an end to this practice of players dragging others on the ground around the place. This wasn't the first such incident and it won't be the last until it's made a sending off offence.  I'm not thinking of what happened on Sunday only - it goes on all the time.

Lar on the intial elbow that caused the injury that appears to have been a genuine clash and an injury caused without malice, however the behaviour of Rory O' Carroll lifting, shaking and pulling at Varley was a disgrace. I understand his behaviour warrented only a yellow according to the rules. This needs to be addressed, the GAA are rightly gettting all high and mighty over a possible incident following a pitch invasion when celebrating fans enter the pitch, but when a lad receives a traumatic brain injury in one of this incidents they will see whats what.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

A bit like the Spillane assault incident, you can't condone it, but you know who to blame for creating the conditions that led to it. In this case it's the legion of cheats who have so misunderstood the reasons for playing amateur sport that they have made the feigning of injury a commonplace in the game. And they'll continue to do it until someone in Varley's position suffers a serious injury or worse as a result, or until we decide to eradicate this from the game. It's our choice.

I know you are not just referring to Mayo or Dublin here, but I have watched the match a few times now, between being there, the Sunday game and a few goes on rte player and the more I watch it the more I see very few of the Mayo injuries being anything but genuine. There is a fierce load of redmist reactions from the Dubs from start to finish though. Many of the Mayo injuries are a result of clashes or accidents, that still does not mean these lads weren't injured.

[Hardy]

Watching the game on Sunday, I felt that, while McQuillan was making lots of wrong calls, he still managed to get to the end without any major incident.
Since then, I've had a good luck at a video of the game and I've revised my opinion- he made an ass's haemes of it.
I'm not saying that all his wrong calls favoured the Dubs; he let Mayo lads away with a few double hops and he managed to yellow the wrong man even after consulting with his officials.
Maybe his linesmen and umpires were at fault in some cases also- the umpire on the nearest side should have spotted that McMenamon had shinned the ball over the line when a 45 was awarded to Dublin, which Clucko pointed. That was no fault of the Dubs but that point might well have proved crucial.
The umpires at the other end were up to their task either.
I don't know what led up to the incident where McMahon dropped Varley with an elbow jab but the umpires at the Dublin end should have been on the watch out for off the ball incidents. However, what happened next does concern me.
Varley was clearly stunned as he lay on the ground and O'Carroll proceeded  to grab him and dragged him to his feet and then gave him a few good shakes. That was an extremely dangerous thing to do as Varley could have had a brain or a spine injury. He put up no resistance and it should have been obvious to all that he was genuinely injured.
Yet McQuillan made no big deal of it. Neither did his umpires.
Thankfully, it appears that he wasn't seriously injured and is making a good recovery but things might have gone seriously wrong for him if he had been.  McStay in his commentary reckoned that O'Carroll should have been given a yellow card but it's going to take more than yellow cards to put an end to this practice of players dragging others on the ground around the place. This wasn't the first such incident and it won't be the last until it's made a sending off offence.  I'm not thinking of what happened on Sunday only - it goes on all the time.

Lar on the intial elbow that caused the injury that appears to have been a genuine clash and an injury caused without malice, however the behaviour of Rory O' Carroll lifting, shaking and pulling at Varley was a disgrace. I understand his behaviour warrented only a yellow according to the rules. This needs to be addressed, the GAA are rightly gettting all high and mighty over a possible incident following a pitch invasion when celebrating fans enter the pitch, but when a lad receives a traumatic brain injury in one of this incidents they will see whats what.

I agree that Varley's genuine injury seemed to be accidental. And, for the sake of safety, I'd reluctantly agree that O'Carroll's offence should be a red card. But I have no doubt that O'Carroll thought Varley was feigning. Such a thought would never have occurred to him if feigning hadn't become endemic in the game. So if roughing up a player on the ground is to be a red card, feigning should be a red card, six months and a penalty kick.

[Syferus]

It wasn't borderline at all. O'Carroll actually looked over in the direction of McQuillan and continued dragging Varley up and down for about three more seconds. I was over near that corner and the length of time O'Carroll spent at Varley was pretty sickening to watch. He lost his head completely and it should have been a very easy decision to send him off.

McQuillan let O'Carroll foul Freeman, Varley's replacement, at least three times without ever blowing up. He was afraid to show a red card.

[From the Bunker]

If roughing up a player on the ground is to be a red card, feigning should be a red card, six months and a penalty kick. So Hardy how would you penalise a player who cheats by throwing a ball into a goal to win a game. And then spends the rest of his time trying to convince the umpires and the referee. Of course this is a more noble art of the game compared to diving. 

[Hardy]

I haven't thought about such a hypothetical situation. I imagine that such a transgression (and I don't recall ever seeing such a case) would be a technical foul on the ball, much the same as two hops or the often seen but never penalised palmed point. Free out.

[Croí na hÉireann]

A Louth player was sent off against us for dragging a player off the ground, there is nothing else to my mind that the red card could be for. The big discussion McQuillan had at the time with his officials looked, to me, as if he was wanting 100% confirmation and agreement to send him off.

[macdanger2]

Some game on Sunday, fair play to all the Mayo players and management.

And comiserations to the Dublin players, management and fans - all very gracious in defeat and great champions.

Will leave any comments for the AIF thread but on the post below Lar, you have to admit the huge part that luck plays in any managers fortunes - consider what would have been said if Coyle's point had been caught by Madden or if BB had stuck his goal chance in the 65th minute.......

The 96-97 side was the best I have seen before now but they didn't match up to Horan's Heros in a number of important aspects.
Maughan's team in the drawn game caved in under pressure in Mayo's time-honoured fashion.
By contrast, the team on Sunday never lost the plot and had regained their composure in the dying moments. Maughan's side were big men, all over six feet, and were in superb physical condition but even the manager caved in when Meath turned the screw.
As an old Kerry friend, a man with a few AI medals, said to me afterwards, "If ye had Micko on the sideline, there'd be no need for a replay."
Anything that's all history now.
In stark contrast, our two Jimmys didn't flap up and down the sideline like headless chickens or turn their backs when Mayo were awarded close-in frees. Like yourself, I've had a lot more dinner times than dinners when it comes to Mayo football and the is the first time I've seen a team that has what it takes to go the whole way.

[moysider]

A bit like the Spillane assault incident, you can't condone it, but you know who to blame for creating the conditions that led to it. In this case it's the legion of cheats who have so misunderstood the reasons for playing amateur sport that they have made the feigning of injury a commonplace in the game. And they'll continue to do it until someone in Varley's position suffers a serious injury or worse as a result, or until we decide to eradicate this from the game. It's our choice.

Agree. If this happens at club and underage there ll be mayhem. It needs to be stamped out. It is not up to players to decide if an opponent is feigning or not. A player that drags a downed opponent - genuine or feigning - should be treated same as a any other type of assault. Yellow or even red depending on the extent of the interference.

On the other hand refs have the option to add on time for playacting and other guidelines could be given to refs if they believe a player is simulating injury. The worry there is that some refs could end up carding players who are really injured. There s a lot of hypocricy involved as well. Two different sets of supporters can see the same thing as cheating on the one hand or clever on the other.

Noel O Leary s dragging of Vaughan in league final was even more sickening because Vaughan was lucky not to have a very serious injury when he was hit by Cadogan while falling. It could easily have resulted in a whiplash type neck injury but O Leary showed one of the poorest calls I ve ever seen in a sportsman. He showed no concept of duty of care to a fellow player to an extent that was shocking imo. No game is worth putting another player in hospital or in a wheelchair. Maurice Deegan was intimidated so badly that day that he did well to survive at the highest level. If he had dealth with the O Leary thing then O Carroll would have thought twice. Apparently the message went out that you could drag injured Mayo players around Croke Park, if you were one of the big boys, with the refs blessing.

Thankfully in the Varley incident the closest Mayo players arrived quickly on the scene and the ref was forced to consider the situation.

[Lar Naparka]

Watching the game on Sunday, I felt that, while McQuillan was making lots of wrong calls, he still managed to get to the end without any major incident.
Since then, I've had a good luck at a video of the game and I've revised my opinion- he made an ass's haemes of it.
I'm not saying that all his wrong calls favoured the Dubs; he let Mayo lads away with a few double hops and he managed to yellow the wrong man even after consulting with his officials.
Maybe his linesmen and umpires were at fault in some cases also- the umpire on the nearest side should have spotted that McMenamon had shinned the ball over the line when a 45 was awarded to Dublin, which Clucko pointed. That was no fault of the Dubs but that point might well have proved crucial.
The umpires at the other end were up to their task either.
I don't know what led up to the incident where McMahon dropped Varley with an elbow jab but the umpires at the Dublin end should have been on the watch out for off the ball incidents. However, what happened next does concern me.
Varley was clearly stunned as he lay on the ground and O'Carroll proceeded  to grab him and dragged him to his feet and then gave him a few good shakes. That was an extremely dangerous thing to do as Varley could have had a brain or a spine injury. He put up no resistance and it should have been obvious to all that he was genuinely injured.
Yet McQuillan made no big deal of it. Neither did his umpires.
Thankfully, it appears that he wasn't seriously injured and is making a good recovery but things might have gone seriously wrong for him if he had been.  McStay in his commentary reckoned that O'Carroll should have been given a yellow card but it's going to take more than yellow cards to put an end to this practice of players dragging others on the ground around the place. This wasn't the first such incident and it won't be the last until it's made a sending off offence.  I'm not thinking of what happened on Sunday only - it goes on all the time.

Lar on the intial elbow that caused the injury that appears to have been a genuine clash and an injury caused without malice, however the behaviour of Rory O' Carroll lifting, shaking and pulling at Varley was a disgrace. I understand his behaviour warrented only a yellow according to the rules. This needs to be addressed, the GAA are rightly gettting all high and mighty over a possible incident following a pitch invasion when celebrating fans enter the pitch, but when a lad receives a traumatic brain injury in one of this incidents they will see whats what.

I agree that Varley's genuine injury seemed to be accidental. And, for the sake of safety, I'd reluctantly agree that O'Carroll's offence should be a red card. But I have no doubt that O'Carroll thought Varley was feigning. Such a thought would never have occurred to him if feigning hadn't become endemic in the game. So if roughing up a player on the ground is to be a red card, feigning should be a red card, six months and a penalty kick.

I don't think it was up to O'Carroll to decide if Varley's injuries were genuine or not and when he assumed that they weren't, what he did next was potentially life-threatening. From an early stage, players on both sides realised that McQuillan wasn't able to control the game and they reacted accordingly. 
Mayo committed a lot of tactical fouls when the tide was running in Dublin's favour and Dublin, not to be outdone, went in for the ordinary decent type of fouls like foot trips and digs.
I doubt very much that O'Carroll would have proceeded to rough up Varley as he lay motionless on the ground if he knew he was in danger of being red-carded.

[Lar Naparka]

Some game on Sunday, fair play to all the Mayo players and management.

And comiserations to the Dublin players, management and fans - all very gracious in defeat and great champions.

Will leave any comments for the AIF thread but on the post below Lar, you have to admit the huge part that luck plays in any managers fortunes - consider what would have been said if Coyle's point had been caught by Madden or if BB had stuck his goal chance in the 65th minute.......

The 96-97 side was the best I have seen before now but they didn't match up to Horan's Heros in a number of important aspects.
Maughan's team in the drawn game caved in under pressure in Mayo's time-honoured fashion.
By contrast, the team on Sunday never lost the plot and had regained their composure in the dying moments. Maughan's side were big men, all over six feet, and were in superb physical condition but even the manager caved in when Meath turned the screw.
As an old Kerry friend, a man with a few AI medals, said to me afterwards, "If ye had Micko on the sideline, there'd be no need for a replay."
Anything that's all history now.
In stark contrast, our two Jimmys didn't flap up and down the sideline like headless chickens or turn their backs when Mayo were awarded close-in frees. Like yourself, I've had a lot more dinner times than dinners when it comes to Mayo football and the is the first time I've seen a team that has what it takes to go the whole way.

I agree with all that but it doesn't affect the point I was making.
Mayo crumbled under pressure in '96 when Meath tacked on 6 points in the last 20 minutes. I recall Maughan turning his back on the play when Mayo were awarded a relatively easy free that Maurice could be expected to slot over.  Needless to say, the hoor put it wide and the rest is history.
If the manager panics, what hope is there for the players?
Horan and Nallen kept their composure and Mayo survived.
If BB had scored a goal that time, Mayo would have lost but if that had happened , O'Connor, Doherty and Conroy would now be having sleepless nights.If Mayo in '96 had 8 replacement to contend with, they would have fallen apart. This side should have lost its shape but didn't and rallied strongly to put the result beyond doubt.

[maigheo]

Jeez lar I hope you are not serious when you say that John Maughan cracked under pressure just because he turned his back on the play for a second and I hope you do not believe that rubbish that if we had Micko on the line that day that there would be no need for a replay.The fact is that if we did not have Maughan we would not have won a connacht title never mind compete for an all ireland final and it is totally disrepectable to Maughan to say otherwise.

[Farrandeelin]

I don't know of anyone who has an 'in between' view of Maughan.

[moysider]

Some game on Sunday, fair play to all the Mayo players and management.

And comiserations to the Dublin players, management and fans - all very gracious in defeat and great champions.

Will leave any comments for the AIF thread but on the post below Lar, you have to admit the huge part that luck plays in any managers fortunes - consider what would have been said if Coyle's point had been caught by Madden or if BB had stuck his goal chance in the 65th minute.......

The 96-97 side was the best I have seen before now but they didn't match up to Horan's Heros in a number of important aspects.
Maughan's team in the drawn game caved in under pressure in Mayo's time-honoured fashion.
By contrast, the team on Sunday never lost the plot and had regained their composure in the dying moments. Maughan's side were big men, all over six feet, and were in superb physical condition but even the manager caved in when Meath turned the screw.
As an old Kerry friend, a man with a few AI medals, said to me afterwards, "If ye had Micko on the sideline, there'd be no need for a replay."
Anything that's all history now.
In stark contrast, our two Jimmys didn't flap up and down the sideline like headless chickens or turn their backs when Mayo were awarded close-in frees. Like yourself, I've had a lot more dinner times than dinners when it comes to Mayo football and the is the first time I've seen a team that has what it takes to go the whole way.

I agree with all that but it doesn't affect the point I was making.
Mayo crumbled under pressure in '96 when Meath tacked on 6 points in the last 20 minutes. I recall Maughan turning his back on the play when Mayo were awarded a relatively easy free that Maurice could be expected to slot over.  Needless to say, the hoor put it wide and the rest is history.
If the manager panics, what hope is there for the players?
Horan and Nallen kept their composure and Mayo survived.
If BB had scored a goal that time, Mayo would have lost but if that had happened , O'Connor, Doherty and Conroy would now be having sleepless nights.If Mayo in '96 had 8 replacement to contend with, they would have fallen apart. This side should have lost its shape but didn't and rallied strongly to put the result beyond doubt.

Lar we did lose our shape. In fact we collapsed as badly as any time in the past and if we had lost it after the lead we had it would have been the worst defeat of all our bad days.

The difference between last day and 96/97 was that we managed to survive one of the most desperate set of circumstances a team will face at that level. And the sideline kept it s cool when whole families, who couldn t be there, were cowering behind the sofa.

But there was good reason for our collapse the last day. I don t think any other team would have survived in the circumstances, and I still cant imagine how we dug it out. Lads that were kept in reserve had to be thrown in early and sick and stitched players like Boyle and McLoughlin had to be used and reintroduced. Unbelievable when you think about. Richie Feeney - who you could start without hesitation - is kept as an impact and safe pair of hands in last 15 came on for Keegan who has been one of our best players. But he had to be replaced in turn when he got injured. The Mayo sideline had serious logistics and decisions to make last Sunday and survived. 96/97 we got a lot wrong but that s the way it goes.

About the BB goal chance. That was a save by Clarkie.