Congress Mass going ahead as planned

[Main Street]

Still no argument in support of your statement?

(Where did hate suddenly arise from? You have a great line in misdirection. We're just talking about sectarianism. First you introduce discrimination, now hate. What next? )

Here's the simple question again:

How can it possibly be interpreted as non-sectarian to promote the religious services of one "sect" in the official schedule of the official congress of the Association?

According to the evidence, the act (to have the mass on the schedule after the business of the day has concluded) cannot be interpreted either as sectarian or non-sectarian. The GAA does not follow the doctrine of the church, nor is the mass event being promoted rigidly.
One does not have to present an argument that it is non-sectarian, it is enough to say that in all probability, there is a recognition that many of the delegates would like to partake in a mass and there is also the tradition of having a mass.
The onus is on the person to present a case that it is a sectarian act.
One surely can have an objection to having the mass on the schedule, possibly instead leave a blank space on the clár for 90 minutes.

[Hardy]

Still no argument in support of your statement?

(Where did hate suddenly arise from? You have a great line in misdirection. We're just talking about sectarianism. First you introduce discrimination, now hate. What next? )

Here's the simple question again:

How can it possibly be interpreted as non-sectarian to promote the religious services of one "sect" in the official schedule of the official congress of the Association?

According to the evidence, the act (to have the mass on the schedule after the business of the day has concluded) cannot be interpreted either as sectarian or non-sectarian. The GAA does not follow the doctrine of the church, nor is the mass event being promoted rigidly.

How do you promote something "rigidly". Assuming you can, what degrees of rigidity are defined? And, assuming such degrees are defined, what degree of rigidity in promoting the services of a particular sect are provided for in the six words of Rule 7b?

One does not have to present an argument that it is non-sectarian, it is enough to sat that in all probability there is a recognition that many of the delegates would like to partake in a mass and there is also the tradition of having a mass.

One does not have to do anything. But if one expects to be taken seriously in a debate, one might consider offering a rebuttal to the argument presented, which our friend seemed unable to do. For instance, in rebuttal of your statement I suggest that neither the desire of some, or even many delegates, nor tradition refutes the self-evident sectarianism involved in catering for a single religion only.

The onus is on the person to present a case that it is a sectarian act.

Yes. that's why I took the trouble to present the case. My case is that it is sectarian to promote the services of a single sect to the exclusion of all others. If it is not, can someone provide a definition of sectarianism that would allow this promotion?

One surely can have an objection to having the mass on the schedule, possibly instead leave a blank space on the clár for 90 minutes.

I don't understand this point.

(I'm off for a few pints now. I'll check in in the morning for Heffo's argument.)

[Main Street]

Yes. that's why I took the trouble to present the case. My case is that it is sectarian to promote the services of a single sect to the exclusion of all others. If it is not, can someone provide a definition of sectarianism that would allow this promotion?

If that was taking trouble to present a case then I hope you are not in the legal or negotiation business

That is not a case you presented, you just offered an opinion and that opinion does not come close to supporting such a strong claim.
An act of tradition by a sporting body is not sectarian merely because that tradition is not all-inclusive of all the members and even if that act of tradition is religious in nature.

[magpie seanie]

If everyone HAD to go to the mass that would be sectarian. It's clearly optional so I don't see the fuss. Let whoever wants to go to mass, go to mass. There are more things to worry about.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Yes. that's why I took the trouble to present the case. My case is that it is sectarian to promote the services of a single sect to the exclusion of all others. If it is not, can someone provide a definition of sectarianism that would allow this promotion?

If that was taking trouble to present a case then I hope you are not in the legal or negotiation business

That is not a case you presented, you just offered an opinion and that opinion does not come close to supporting such a strong claim.
An act of tradition by a sporting governing body is not sectarian merely because that tradition is not all-inclusive of all the members and even if that act of tradition is religious in nature.

A bit like the Queen of England then 

[trueblue1234]

If people really believe the mass is sectarian, would these people not be with-drawing their support for the organisation and indeed membership.

I know I would not be happy to be a part of an organisation that would be considered sectarian.

[Lar Naparka]

As I see it, the involvement of the Catholic Church in Ireland in GAA affairs at differing levels has been more about promotion for the church than promotion of the GAA. There is of course scenarios where the local Catholic parish and their priests have helped local GAA clubs in some places over time including forming clubs and teams, and providing accommodation and meeting places particularly during the troubles. And some priests have set great local milestones. But there have been times also when they have hindered its development, as a recent story on AFR shows in one example because of the hang-ups of a bishop. Thankfully in most places the local PP no longer holds such a tyrannical reign should his flock go against him. Also in Ireland and the world over, units of the Catholic church have been involved in developing sports clubs over a wide range of games, closer to home I can think of soccer and indoor bowls for two. Gaelic games do not have promotional exclusivity among the Catholic clergy in Ireland.
Personally I think the GAA should concentrate solely on sporting and cultural matters and not get involved in anything else unless there is a vested interest in the Association as a whole to do so. Saying that, this matter isn't that hugely pressing of a concern against other issues that need closer attention like player burn-out, clubs and counties affected by emigration etc. but still worth debating about.

You argument is very well presented. I am in complete agreement with you on all points you have raised.

[Eamonnca1]

If people really believe the mass is sectarian, would these people not be with-drawing their support for the organisation and indeed membership.

Translation: "Anyone who isn't a practicing catholic or who has a problem with the GAA officially endorsing a specifically catholic act of worship can f*** away off and leave the association. It's for catholics only."

[Eamonnca1]

Sectarian
sec·tar·i·an  (sk-târ-n)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sect.
2. Adhering or confined to the dogmatic limits of a sect or denomination; partisan.
3. Narrow-minded; parochial.
n.
1. A member of a sect.
2. One characterized by bigoted adherence to a factional viewpoint.

If a sports organization officially endorses a religious ceremony specific to one sect or denomination than that is a sectarian act.  Having a very specific Roman Catholic Mass listed on the clar of the meeting is an official endorsement of that ceremony which aligns the GAA squarely with the catholic church in violation of the Official Guide.  Now if there was nothing on the clar at the allotted time and an announcement was made that religious services are available for those who want them, I wouldn't have a problem with that.  My problem is with the association undermining its own attempts to reach out beyond its traditional support base.  You want to get northern Protestants taking up hurling in larger numbers?  This is not the way to go about it.

This is the point that the "if you don't like it don't go to the mass" crowd are missing.

[trueblue1234]

If people really believe the mass is sectarian, would these people not be with-drawing their support for the organisation and indeed membership.

Translation: "Anyone who isn't a practicing catholic or who has a problem with the GAA officially endorsing a specifically catholic act of worship can f*** away off and leave the association. It's for catholics only."

where did I say any of that? I'm just trying to follow a bit of logic.
You believe this action is sectarian, and it's obviously endorsed by the GAA heirarchy. Therefore this makes the GAA sectarian? Simple yes or no?

If yes, then how why would you continue to support a sectarian organisation?

Try and answer the question this time. And not go of on a rant. I never mentioned anything about the GAA being pro catholic.

[Hardy]

If that was taking trouble to present a case then I hope you are not in the legal or negotiation business

That is not a case you presented, you just offered an opinion and that opinion does not come close to supporting such a strong claim.
An act of tradition by a sporting body is not sectarian merely because that tradition is not all-inclusive of all the members and even if that act of tradition is religious in nature.

Sneering at the argument of another does not constitute a counter argument. If you have a case to make, make it. You could start by having a go at

1. Answering my simple question - how can it be considered non-sectarian to promote the religious services of a particular sect?
2. Providing a definition of non-sectarianism that allows for promoting a particular sect to the exclusion of all others.

If everyone HAD to go to the mass that would be sectarian. It's clearly optional so I don't see the fuss. Let whoever wants to go to mass, go to mass. There are more things to worry about.

Seanie, the point is not the mass, it's its inclusion as an official activity of the GAA. It's casually sectarian and all the more annoying for this blind casualness and assumption that it's OK to behave like this because ah sure we're nearly all Catholics and sure we've always done it. Sure the protestants and Nigerian baptists and other irrelevant minorities can surely find something to do while the real GAA is about the official religious business of the GAA by attending mass. Sure if they want a room for a service we'll be delighted to provide it. They only have to ask.

The point? The catholics didn't have to ask. It may seem a small thing, if you're a catholic. Is it a small thing if you're a presbyterian or muslim who is excluded from one of the OFFICIAL activities of Congress? What would the catholic nationalists here who seem to think it's so important to include the catholic church in the activities of the GAA think if a DUP-dominated local council voted through a measure to include a half-hour religioius sermon by Ian Paisley in every council meeting?

You're right - there are more things to worry about, but you could say that about any thread here. I nominate the Manchester United one.

[mick999]

Was this also sectarian ?

http://ireland.anglican.org/news/2977

Participants at All Ireland GAA Congress attend service in St John's Church, Newcastle, Co Down

On the Sunday morning following the 16th-17th April meeting of the All Ireland GAA Congress at the Slieve Donard Hotel, Newcastle, Co. Down, some 50 Congress participants came to the Parish Communion service in St John's Church of Ireland parish church, including the organisation's President, Christy Cooney, and Director-General, Páraic Duffy.

[Hardy]

Was it part of the agenda of congress? Was the official mass also included in that year's congress?

[mick999]

Was it part of the agenda of congress? No. Was the official mass also included in that year's congress? Yes

http://www.gaa.ie/content/documents/publications/annual_reports/Annual_Report_2010_Part1_Pg1_51.pdf

[Main Street]

If that was taking trouble to present a case then I hope you are not in the legal or negotiation business

That is not a case you presented, you just offered an opinion and that opinion does not come close to supporting such a strong claim.
An act of tradition by a sporting body is not sectarian merely because that tradition is not all-inclusive of all the members and even if that act of tradition is religious in nature.

Sneering at the argument of another does not constitute a counter argument. If you have a case to make, make it. You could start by having a go at

1. Answering my simple question - how can it be considered non-sectarian to promote the religious services of a particular sect?
2. Providing a definition of non-sectarianism that allows for promoting a particular sect to the exclusion of all others.

I wasn't sneering at an argument, you simply did not present an argument. I have already stated my opinion whereby I concluded that it is not sectarian to have a mass on the clár. I am not defending the GAA having a mass on the clár. I am simply stating an opinion that it is not sectarian and gave my clear reason why.
A sectarian act by the GAA could be defined by having membership to a certain church as a prerequisite to membership of the GAA, or an exclusion to members of a certain church.
A nonsectarian act by the GAA is have no regard to religious affiliation in the membership criteria.

If one wants to argue for a secular GAA (in this context of this mass), one can certainly do it without resorting to using extreme inappropriate emotional language.
You have to do your own legwork to support a claim that having a mass on the clár is a sectarian act.