IRA "fired first" in 1987 attack in Loughgall

[Maguire01]

On the wider debate, I don't understand why people are so convinced that equality in NI could only have been achieved via an the armed campaign (other than to justify a campaign that didn't achieve its constitutional objectives).

The wider world has changed beyond recognition over that same period. I don't believe for a minute that in 1997 (or whatever year equality was supposedly delivered) we'd still be living in the same 'orange state' as in 1969, if a peaceful path had been pursued.

In the context of changing demographics (i.e. increasing Catholic population against a decreasing Protestant population) and an increasingly educated Catholic population (in comparison to the Protestant population), I think equality was inevitable.

I'm not saying that equality could have been achieved in 2 or 3 years, but we're talking about a 30 year period. To what extent did 3,000+ deaths and countless injuries and destroyed lives on all sides expedite delivery of equality?

Maybe hundreds of years of oppression and broken promises. The only thing the brits ever understood was aggression. Anyone who thinks the brits would have stood up to unionists without ira intervention lives in a bubble in ny opinion.

I think that the 'developed' world has probably changed a lot more in the last 30-40 years than in the hundreds of years before it in terms of equality and the extent of tolerance for racism, sexism, homophobia and sectarianism. I can't see how the NI of 1969 could have remained unchanged in the context of the changes in the wider world, as well as the internal context I mentioned (demographics and education).

[mylestheslasher]

Really maguire. I thought the brits were recently involved in an illegal invasion of Iraq based on a lie about weapons of mass destruction. How many men, women and children did they slaughter there to get their grubby hands on oil. Developed world me arse.

[sammymaguire]

These people were living in the here and now Maguire. If your neighbour took over your house and told you to sleep on the sofa, eat the scraps off your table and do all the shit jobs around the house, would you give him 30 years, talking to him all the while and knowing he was laughing at you but at least you knew that things would be better as the whole neighbourhood is becoming a more tolerant place to live?? Now would you? Or would you stand up for yourself and tell the **** to get the fcuk out? 

And give him a good kick in the hole for trying it so he got the message not to even think about doing it again.

[Eamonnca1]

If we're going to use household metaphors the least we can do is get them accurate.

Your neighbour takes over your house and kicks your crap out. While he's there he has a son who stays in one of the rooms. You fight the neighbour while he's going through an unrelated mid-life crisis and eventually he leaves, but his son stays in one of the rooms and keeps paying rent to your neighbour rather than you. His son roughs up your son, so you go next door throwing punches at your neighbour (who is 12 times your size) and ordering him to take his son away. For various reasons his son can't leave (the main reason being he was born there and doesn't see why he should leave) so you're stuck with him in your house whether you like it or not. But you still want him to pay rent to you rather than the neighbour. How do you persuade him to pay rent to you rather than his dad? By A continuing to kick the crap out of him and his dad, or B being nice to him and persuading him that the house he lives in will be a whole lot nicer if he pays rent to you instead of his dad?

For those who are lost:
House=Ireland
Unrelated mid-life crisis=First World War
Neighbour's son=Northern unionists
Neighbour's son's room=Northern Ireland
House next door=Britain
Rent=National affiliation

I'm struck by the absence of all consideration of northern protestants in almost every comment made here by the provo fans, this despite the fact that we have a deal that guarantees a united Ireland as soon as we can convince enough northern prods to come on board. Always with them it's just "us v the evil Brits."

[Gaffer]

As if the Provos gave the Brits a good kick in the hole. Dream on .

The Provos gave up their war in 1994 due mainly to the pressure put on them by the nationalist  community because of the relentless murders by the Combined Loyalist Military Command from the late 1980's. onwards

[sammymaguire]

Jeez Eamonn, you really know how to suck the life out of a decent online debate don't ya?

I never said they did, did i Gaffer? You reading things that are not written there? However, I think you can admit that the Provo's, for a crowd of thick, spud picking Paddies taught the English crown forces a lesson or three 

[Gaffer]

Jeez Eamonn, you really know how to suck the life out of a decent online debate don't ya?

I never said they did, did i Gaffer? You reading things that are not written there? However, I think you can admit that the Provo's, for a crowd of thick, spud picking Paddies taught the English crown forces a lesson or three 

Did what?

Is this what you thought of the Provos, eh? I thought you admired them,

They taught the Brits bog all, The brits have fought wars since the year dot,

[sammymaguire]

Where did I say I admired the IRA? Nowhere. I respect what they were doing for the repressed catholic minority of the 6 counties of Nothern Ireland who were suffering at the hands of the Unionist led / British rule during the time they were most active.

Desperate times called for desperate measures. I think the catholic folk siding with the Unionist/British/Loyalist cause needs their heads seem to. Must be living in some kind of bubble as the Cavan man said earlier on.

British have been fighting wars since year dot. And who have the Irish fought against apart from the Brits? Does that tell you something too?

[Forever Green]

Are there actually Irishmen criticising their own people for standing up to the British??? Just remember, you`s would still be second class citizens if it weren't for those men who had the balls to put up a fight. An army of 800 up against a very heavily armed force of 15,000 odd(not including loyalists), it is pretty obvious that the Provo`s got the better of the utter scum that is the British Army

[Eamonnca1]

Jeez Eamonn, you really know how to suck the life out of a decent online debate don't ya?

Sorry for complicating things by introducing accuracy. Let me know when you've had time to digest the information.

[Eamonnca1]

Are there actually Irishmen criticising their own people for standing up to the British??? Just remember, you`s would still be second class citizens if it weren't for those men who had the balls to put up a fight. An army of 800 up against a very heavily armed force of 15,000 odd(not including loyalists), it is pretty obvious that the Provo`s got the better of the utter scum that is the British Army

Says the man with the logo of a British club in a British sport as his avatar.

[Forever Green]

Are there actually Irishmen criticising their own people for standing up to the British??? Just remember, you`s would still be second class citizens if it weren't for those men who had the balls to put up a fight. An army of 800 up against a very heavily armed force of 15,000 odd(not including loyalists), it is pretty obvious that the Provo`s got the better of the utter scum that is the British Army

Says the man with the logo of a British club in a British sport as his avatar.

What has that got to do with it?

[sammymaguire]

Jeez Eamonn, you really know how to suck the life out of a decent online debate don't ya?

Sorry for complicating things by introducing accuracy. Let me know when you've had time to digest the information.

Anyone ever accuse you of being ever so slightly boring? If not, let me be the first. Stick to the videos

[Eamonnca1]

What has that got to do with it?

It's the comedy value of a Brit hater being sucked into supporting a British club in a British sport. It's not relevant to the debate at all. It's just funny.

Carry on.

[Eamonnca1]

Anyone ever accuse you of being ever so slightly boring?

Nope.