IRA "fired first" in 1987 attack in Loughgall

[Evil Genius]

Unbelievable...

whats 'unbelievable ' is that instead of condemning the deaths of all these kids - disgrace on both sides - yer trying to make a few alterations (some with the discredited cain source) on a couple of the figures that make no inroads on the large figures listed.

no surprise though - its the usual carry on from you.

What I'm saying is this.

That list is totally unreliable, when even the most cursory examination reveals that several of the entries are plain wrong. Worse, it is clear that the inaccuracies do not stem from simple error, but have been deliberately distorted in order both to make the British look worse, whilst exonerating or whitewashing Republicans.

Yet how typical it is that you completely ignore this deliberate falsification by 'Íseal agus crua isteach a' and instead concentrate on having a pop at me for exposing him/her.

Such is your partisanship that you are little better than he/she (imo).

P.S. It is a constant refrain of yours that CAIN is "discredited", yet you produce no independent, expert evidence that it is so. No doubt this is because when it comes down to it, the enormous amount of information contained thereon can be distilled as follows:

Organisation Responsible for the death:
Organisation_Responsible Count
British Army (BA)  297
British Police (BP)  1
Catholic Reaction Force (CRF)  3
Direct Action Against Drugs (DAAD)  5
Garda Siochana (GS)  4
Irish Army (IA)  1
Irish National Liberation Army (INLA)  113
Irish People's Liberation Organisation (IPLO)  22
Irish People's Liberation Organisation Belfast Brigade (IPLOBB)  2
Irish Republican Army (IRA)  1711
Loyalist Retaliation and Defence Group (LRDG)  2
Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF)  18
non-specific Loyalist group (LOY)  247
non-specific Republican group (REP)  89
not known (nk)  85
Official Irish Republican Army (OIRA)  52
People's Liberation Army (PLA)  3
People's Republican Army (PRA)  4
Protestant Action Force (PAF)  37
Protestant Action Group (PAG)  5
real Irish Republican Army (rIRA)  29
Red Hand Commando (RHC)  13
Red Hand Defenders (RHD)  8
Republican Action Force (RepAF)  24
Royal Air Force (RAF)  1
Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)  55
Saor Eire (SE)  3
Ulster Defence Association (UDA)  113
Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR)  8
Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF)  147
Ulster Special Constabulary (USC)  1
Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)  426
TOTAL 3529
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/Organisation_Responsible.html

[sammymaguire]

TRULY BREATHTAKING  breathtaking like this?? A thing of beauty...



Very dramatic indeed Myles 

Beautiful indeed ....do you know where this is?

Fermanagh 

[lynchbhoy]

Unbelievable...

whats 'unbelievable ' is that instead of condemning the deaths of all these kids - disgrace on both sides - yer trying to make a few alterations (some with the discredited cain source) on a couple of the figures that make no inroads on the large figures listed.

no surprise though - its the usual carry on from you.

What I'm saying is this.

3500 dead kids?

either way only you would  gloss over this and try to justify/explain away this.

its a disgrace whoever killed the kids (as the killing of adults is also)
if it was the other way around (eg the 'other side' killed more :9 ) then it wouldnt change this woeful fact.
stop digging.

a few wrong figures here or there (or even the reverse entirely) isnt something to try and explain/apologise away ffs.

[Tony Baloney]

Unbelievable...

whats 'unbelievable ' is that instead of condemning the deaths of all these kids - disgrace on both sides - yer trying to make a few alterations (some with the discredited cain source) on a couple of the figures that make no inroads on the large figures listed.

no surprise though - its the usual carry on from you.

How is CAIN discredited? It is known how many people were killed, when and for the most part by whom (at least who took responsibility). How is a list of facts discredited? Facts win cases.

[Myles Na G.]

Unbelievable...

whats 'unbelievable ' is that instead of condemning the deaths of all these kids - disgrace on both sides - yer trying to make a few alterations (some with the discredited cain source) on a couple of the figures that make no inroads on the large figures listed.

no surprise though - its the usual carry on from you.

How is CAIN discredited? It is known how many people were killed, when and for the most part by whom (at least who took responsibility). How is a list of facts discredited? Facts win cases.

Not when LB is involved. What he says is true, especially when it's backed up with exclamation marks!!

[sammymaguire]

This thread is becoming more and more deplorable as the British high horse brigade attack in their droves using the gutter tactics of bringing in the awful deaths of innocent children as some kind of points scoring system that wins the day! Shocking stuff from Irish folk lads. No call for that kind of shit on here. There are no rights and wrongs in bringing that topic into the debate, we all know it was wrong, end of.

[Gaffer]

This thread is becoming more and more deplorable as the British high horse brigade attack in their droves using the gutter tactics of bringing in the awful deaths of innocent children as some kind of points scoring system that wins the day! Shocking stuff from Irish folk lads. No call for that kind of shit on here. There are no rights and wrongs in bringing that topic into the debate, we all know it was wrong, end of.

.


     Typical Provo comment. Any nationalist  who critizes the Provos are dubbed as being pro British.

[sammymaguire]

You'll have to enlighten me there Tyrone man. What's a typical Provo?

[Tony Baloney]

You'll have to enlighten me there Tyrone man. What's a typical Provo?

Typical Provo comment not a comment by a typical Provo. Can you see the difference?

[Maguire01]

This thread is becoming more and more deplorable as the British high horse brigade attack in their droves using the gutter tactics of bringing in the awful deaths of innocent children as some kind of points scoring system that wins the day! Shocking stuff from Irish folk lads. No call for that kind of shit on here. There are no rights and wrongs in bringing that topic into the debate, we all know it was wrong, end of.

Are you getting sponsored for every time you mention 'high horse'?

[sammymaguire]

You'll have to enlighten me there Tyrone man. What's a typical Provo?

Typical Provo comment not a comment by a typical Provo. Can you see the difference?

Very poor English grammar, needs to stay off forums if the oul English ain't that tarra. I did refer to the fact that it was coming from Irish lads on a GAA forum so his silly comment would not equate to much in reference to my main point prior to his remark. Who is the main SDLP councillor in Middletown? Is he/she doing a good job for ya Tony?

Get off your high horse Maguire and say what you really wanna say you snivelling little rat. 

[Maguire01]

On the wider debate, I don't understand why people are so convinced that equality in NI could only have been achieved via an the armed campaign (other than to justify a campaign that didn't achieve its constitutional objectives).

The wider world has changed beyond recognition over that same period. I don't believe for a minute that in 1997 (or whatever year equality was supposedly delivered) we'd still be living in the same 'orange state' as in 1969, if a peaceful path had been pursued.

In the context of changing demographics (i.e. increasing Catholic population against a decreasing Protestant population) and an increasingly educated Catholic population (in comparison to the Protestant population), I think equality was inevitable.

I'm not saying that equality could have been achieved in 2 or 3 years, but we're talking about a 30 year period. To what extent did 3,000+ deaths and countless injuries and destroyed lives on all sides expedite delivery of equality?

[Maguire01]

Get off your high horse Maguire and say what you really wanna say you snivelling little rat. 

When your argument fails, there's always personal abuse!

[sammymaguire]

Get off your high horse Maguire and say what you really wanna say you snivelling little rat. 

When your argument fails, there's always personal abuse!

Were you arguing with me? I thought you were just having a go at the fact I was referring to the British/unionist sympathisers as folk on their high horse. I think it's quite an adept description as I cannot fathom why nationalists would side with Brits rather than Republicans other than side with what is seen as the ruling body vs the revolt. I think anyone would accept that both sides were wrong in many incidents that happened during the Troubles

[mylestheslasher]

On the wider debate, I don't understand why people are so convinced that equality in NI could only have been achieved via an the armed campaign (other than to justify a campaign that didn't achieve its constitutional objectives).

The wider world has changed beyond recognition over that same period. I don't believe for a minute that in 1997 (or whatever year equality was supposedly delivered) we'd still be living in the same 'orange state' as in 1969, if a peaceful path had been pursued.

In the context of changing demographics (i.e. increasing Catholic population against a decreasing Protestant population) and an increasingly educated Catholic population (in comparison to the Protestant population), I think equality was inevitable.

I'm not saying that equality could have been achieved in 2 or 3 years, but we're talking about a 30 year period. To what extent did 3,000+ deaths and countless injuries and destroyed lives on all sides expedite delivery of equality?

Maybe hundreds of years of oppression and broken promises. The only thing the brits ever understood was aggression. Anyone who thinks the brits would have stood up to unionists without ira intervention lives in a bubble in ny opinion.