IRA "fired first" in 1987 attack in Loughgall

[sammymaguire]

Biggest nationalist party during Troubles: SDLP
Biggest nationalist party after Troubles: SF

Conclusion: Nationalists in general are opposed to armed force and felt better about voting for SF after they ditched the violence.

I am getting sucked in again. I am a pretty liberal and tolerant guy and would have no issues whatsoever with John Smith, aged 43, from Bristol. or Julie Owen, aged 29 from Wolverhampton. The normal English man or woman are good decent people, not to far flung from ourselves in many ways.

But please do me a favour. Wise up. Who, in their right mind feels good when they hear about someone being killed?? Unfortunately some people had to go to extreme measures to stand up for one side of the community in the 6 counties that were being treated like cnuts by those who were the ruling power. Look what the hunger strikers had to go through. Look what the people of the Bogside had to go through. You cant tell me or anyone else that the actions of those who took up arms did not have the impact that was needed to gain the desired effect. It did.

Talking. You think Irish people talking to the British govt of the 1980's especially would have got what the IRA managed to get? Did the miners get much luck talking to Maggie Thatcher and they were her own good English folk, so what chance to you think Gerry Adams et al had? Grow A Brain. 

Some of the attitudes and opinions of people on this thread are so PC its quite funny in one way, very sad in another. Its just the pure old ideology of I cant associate, support, sympathise or be connected in any way shape or form with murderous criminals whether they wear balaclavas or shirts and ties. "I would feel dirty just subconsciously agreeing that what some people FOUGHT to get for the benefit of so many people (of which I belong) was a good thing, I am far too intelligent and forthright for all that kind of nonsense!"

I am not saying everyone should be out there are the Easter marches etc, but they should accept that respect is due where respect is due and dont take the side of the Brits, if they were that great then they would be in charge of the whole country of Ireland today, and maybe that wouldnt be a bad thing considering the mess it is in 

[Main Street]

Biggest nationalist party during Troubles: SDLP
Biggest nationalist party after Troubles: SF

Conclusion: Nationalists in general are opposed to armed force and felt better about voting for SF after they ditched the violence.

And French people felt better about the French resistance after they were liberated and the resistance put away their guns.
Conclusion?
Violent resistance does not need a popular mandate, it just needs conditions.
Sinn Fein did not seriously engage in a political process until after they called the ceasefire.
There are many factors why the SF electoral base grew.
One could also consider that the SDLP profile has lessened in value.

[Eamonnca1]

Play me the world's smallest violin. All the armed campaign did was deepen divisions between catholics and protestants and make it even harder to achieve an eventual united Ireland. The reforms that were made in the north in favor of nationalists owe far more to the civil rights marches and the behind-the-scenes lobbying of the SDLP than any bombs and bullets. Anyone giving credit for that progress to armed republicans is just re-writing history.

And as for Maggie Thatcher, thanks to the work of the SDLP and a few enlightened souls down south, the most stubborn British Prime Minister in living memory eventually wised up after the hunger strike debacle and faced down unionist opposition (much of it violent) to give the south a say in the affairs of the north via the Anglo Irish Agreement.

[sammymaguire]

Are you still asleep over there in America?? Here you go:



Whatever ya say Eamonn. Right ya be. 

[Nally Stand]

Play me the world's smallest violin. All the armed campaign did was deepen divisions between catholics and protestants and make it even harder to achieve an eventual united Ireland. The reforms that were made in the north in favor of nationalists owe far more to the civil rights marches and the behind-the-scenes lobbying of the SDLP than any bombs and bullets. Anyone giving credit for that progress to armed republicans is just re-writing history.

And as for Maggie Thatcher, thanks to the work of the SDLP and a few enlightened souls down south, the most stubborn British Prime Minister in living memory eventually wised up after the hunger strike debacle and faced down unionist opposition (much of it violent) to give the south a say in the affairs of the north via the Anglo Irish Agreement.

The armed struggle brought Britain to the negotiating table and as a result, led to the level of peace and equality that we simply would not have today otherwise. And before some bright spark starts pedaling the myth that Sunningdale was the wonderful answer to all the problems, just remember that Sunningdale didn't mention the word equality once; and even if it did, the social conditions of the day would not have allowed it to succeed. Things were a lot safer in the six counties for nationalists at the time the GFA was signed in 1998, and it still took a further 9 years of Unionist vetos and collapses/re-introduction of the assembly before it got going in any kind of stability. To believe that Sunningdale would have been a success is about as credible as believeing we could have just closed our eyes and wished really hard...

[Ulick]

And as for Maggie Thatcher, thanks to the work of the SDLP and a few enlightened souls down south, the most stubborn British Prime Minister in living memory eventually wised up after the hunger strike debacle and faced down unionist opposition (much of it violent) to give the south a say in the affairs of the north via the Anglo Irish Agreement.

Haha, tell me another Eamonn, cause that one was 

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

The reforms that were made in the north in favor of nationalists owe far more to the civil rights marches and the behind-the-scenes lobbying of the SDLP than any bombs and bullets....

Ha, ha, ha!... Yeah, the SDLP were just so persuasive! 

[Nally Stand]

Maggie trembled at the mighty power of the SDLP 

[Eamonnca1]

The armed struggle has successfully created an entire generation of northern protestants who won't even consider Irish unity.  When you consider that getting a decent number of northern protestants on our side is the pathway to Irish unity, you really have to question the wisdom of the "bomb em, shoot em" brigade.

There was no substantial negotiation until after the bombing stopped.  By "substantial negotiation" I mean between the parties in the north, the people who actually need to be working together. All this talk about "Provos v the Brits" as if they're the only two players in the system and as if northern unionists don't exist just shows you that some people still don't get it.

[Eamonnca1]

Maggie trembled at the mighty power of the SDLP 

Scoff all you want. The Anglo Irish Agreement would not have happened without John Hume and you know it. Fact.

[Gaffer]

Maggie trembled at the mighty power of the SDLP 

And she faced down the Provos and lived to tell the tale !

[Nally Stand]

The armed struggle has successfully created an entire generation of northern protestants who won't even consider Irish unity.  When you consider that getting a decent number of northern protestants on our side is the pathway to Irish unity, you really have to question the wisdom of the "bomb em, shoot em" brigade.

There was no substantial negotiation until after the bombing stopped.  By "substantial negotiation" I mean between the parties in the north, the people who actually need to be working together. All this talk about "Provos v the Brits" as if they're the only two players in the system and as if northern unionists don't exist just shows you that some people still don't get it.

There was negotiations from early on. Plenty of them. Canary Wharf is the prime example of what I'm talking about. It happened due to the British not committing to the negotiations. You honestly think if there was no armed struggle, that Unionists would have been happy to consider a United Ireland? Catch a grip. If there was no armed campaign, the unionist community would still be enjoying first class citizenship over a second class nationalist community. The peaceful route was tried and Bloody Sunday & Burntollet happened. No amount of fanciful make believe will change the fact that it took the bomb and the bullet to bring Britain to the table.

[Gaffer]

The armed struggle has successfully created an entire generation of northern protestants who won't even consider Irish unity.  When you consider that getting a decent number of northern protestants on our side is the pathway to Irish unity, you really have to question the wisdom of the "bomb em, shoot em" brigade.

There was no substantial negotiation until after the bombing stopped.  By "substantial negotiation" I mean between the parties in the north, the people who actually need to be working together. All this talk about "Provos v the Brits" as if they're the only two players in the system and as if northern unionists don't exist just shows you that some people still don't get it.

There was negotiations from early on. Plenty of them. Warrington is the prime example of what I'm talking about. It happened due to the British not committing to the negotiations. You honestly think if there was no armed struggle, that Unionists would have been happy to consider a United Ireland? Catch a grip. If there was no armed campaign, the unionist community would still be enjoying first class citizenship over a second class nationalist community. The peaceful route was tried and Bloody Sunday & Burntollet happened. No amount of fanciful make believe will change the fact that it took the bomb and the bullet to bring Britain to the table.

Where they proceeded to run rings round the Provos.....total decommissioning, administering British rule in Ireland etc etc

[Eamonnca1]

The armed struggle has successfully created an entire generation of northern protestants who won't even consider Irish unity.  When you consider that getting a decent number of northern protestants on our side is the pathway to Irish unity, you really have to question the wisdom of the "bomb em, shoot em" brigade.

There was no substantial negotiation until after the bombing stopped.  By "substantial negotiation" I mean between the parties in the north, the people who actually need to be working together. All this talk about "Provos v the Brits" as if they're the only two players in the system and as if northern unionists don't exist just shows you that some people still don't get it.

There was negotiations from early on. Plenty of them. Warrington is the prime example of what I'm talking about. It happened due to the British not committing to the negotiations. You honestly think if there was no armed struggle, that Unionists would have been happy to consider a United Ireland? Catch a grip. If there was no armed campaign, the unionist community would still be enjoying first class citizenship over a second class nationalist community. The peaceful route was tried and Bloody Sunday & Burntollet happened. No amount of fanciful make believe will change the fact that it took the bomb and the bullet to bring Britain to the table.

See what I mean? Completely missed the point about negotiating with the unionists.

Your attempt to justify the murder of two children in Warrington is beneath contempt.

[Trout]

The armed struggle has successfully created an entire generation of northern protestants who won't even consider Irish unity.  When you consider that getting a decent number of northern protestants on our side is the pathway to Irish unity, you really have to question the wisdom of the "bomb em, shoot em" brigade.

There was no substantial negotiation until after the bombing stopped.  By "substantial negotiation" I
mean between the parties in the north, the people who actually need to be working together. All this talk about "Provos v the Brits" as if they're the only two players in the system and as if northern unionists don't exist just shows you that some people still don't get it.

There was negotiations from early on. Plenty of them. Warrington is the prime example of what I'm talking about. It happened due to the British not committing to the negotiations. You honestly think if there was no armed struggle, that Unionists would have been happy to consider a United Ireland? Catch a grip. If there was no armed campaign, the unionist community would still be enjoying first class citizenship over a second class nationalist community. The peaceful route was tried and Bloody Sunday & Burntollet happened. No amount of fanciful make believe will change the fact that it took the bomb and the bullet to bring Britain to the table.

See what I mean? Completely missed the point about negotiating with the unionists.

Your attempt to justify the murder of two children in Warrington is beneath contempt.

Though not surprising.