British State Collusion

[Snapchap]

These are the details, outlined in today's ruling, of what the British forces tried to deny was a case of "shoot-to-kill"

[AustinPowers]

Here's my confusion. Martin McGuiness used to say it was a war. And if those men could been arrested and not shot it be a war crime? How's that work the other way round? Would the Ira not have shot them as it was a supposed war? The 2 soldiers that day of the funerals in Belfast. Took alive then shot, do we not class that was a war crime? What am trying to said you can't say 1 outfit committing war crimes and then the other one not, as it doesn't suit us. There a show on tv  about ww2 at the minute and Hitler instruction was take no prisoners.Where do we draw the difference?

The only gripe I have is that the brits would not consider it a war in their own backyard, they refused to consider the IRA as combatants yet utilised a combatant shoot to skill policy.

There was no doubt they knew the risks Kevin o'donnell was in the game long enough, I remember him with a half grin on his face in the coffin oddly. But like tony doris we never knew lads like peter or sean were involved until they were dead, some waste of life

Can I ask what  actually took place that night? I've heard differing reports

[LC]

These are the details, outlined in today's ruling, of what the British forces tried to deny was a case of "shoot-to-kill"

Regardless of the actions / intentions of those 4 men in Clonoe that night it is great that their families have had what they believed to be the case for so long proven to be correct and publicly acknowledged.  They may push on from here with further legal proceedings and I wish them the best in this regard.

The one thing they will probably neve know is who was the friend / comrade / neighbour of their relative who advised the authorities of what, where and when was going to happen that night.  We all know the SAS were not there by chance.  The SAS men who pulled the trigger that night were probably back in the mainland by sunrise the next day and probably never gave any thought thereafter to what happened on that night.

If I was one of the family members of the victims I would struggle to live with the fact that the person who directed the security forces there that night is still living among them and no doubt would  have been running around shaking hands at the time of the wakes or on annual commemorations since.  Such people are just as culpable as those who pulled the trigger, if you were providing such information at that time and bearing in mind previous events in Coagh and Loughgall it would not have taken a genius to figure out how things were going to end.

[naka]

Here's my confusion. Martin McGuiness used to say it was a war. And if those men could been arrested and not shot it be a war crime? How's that work the other way round? Would the Ira not have shot them as it was a supposed war? The 2 soldiers that day of the funerals in Belfast. Took alive then shot, do we not class that was a war crime? What am trying to said you can't say 1 outfit committing war crimes and then the other one not, as it doesn't suit us. There a show on tv  about ww2 at the minute and Hitler instruction was take no prisoners.Where do we draw the difference?

In the north , Ira/inla were deemed terrorists subject to the rule of law remember this was essentially the decision of the uk government in the late 70s after political status revoked .
If caught members were jailed for a long time and deemed criminals , their actions were crimes according to the state .( not acts of war)
So accordingly to the rules as laid down by the government the shoot to kill policies brought in by the SAS should also be crimes .

On a separate point LC  I totally agree with you on the informer point .

[tyroneStatto]

I always thought the informant for this was caught and killed near the end of 1992?

[tyrone08]

I always thought the informant for this was caught and killed near the end of 1992?

I thought the rumour was that it was either McGuinness or Adams that gave them up as they wanted the peace deal but a few groups such as East tyrone didnt

[marty34]

In general, I think the easy thing is to point to informers but not always the case I'd say.

Brits were great at spying on people and using listening devices.

Was listening to a podcast recently with an ex-soldier and he was saying (whether you believe him or not is another story) is a 'key player' would have got a letter saying they won a family holiday, via a newspaper and they'd be away or a night. 

In meantime, security lads would break in and bug the house. He said they'd take photos of rooms etc. and everything would be exactly where it was when they first entered.  Sounds far fetched but great training for the Brit security services and money was no object.

So I wouldn't go with the informer thing all the time. It's an easy way out. Brits were clever. Of course they had informers at every level. 

People are humans and in every conflict/war, there will be informers.  Just human nature.

[Milltown Row2]

The wasted life to be no further on 30 odd years later...

[Snapchap]

The wasted life to be no further on 30 odd years later...

No further on?

Been stopped by the British Army recently have you? Or the RUC?

[general_lee]

In general, I think the easy thing is to point to informers but not always the case I'd say.

Brits were great at spying on people and using listening devices.

Was listening to a podcast recently with an ex-soldier and he was saying (whether you believe him or not is another story) is a 'key player' would have got a letter saying they won a family holiday, via a newspaper and they'd be away or a night. 

In meantime, security lads would break in and bug the house. He said they'd take photos of rooms etc. and everything would be exactly where it was when they first entered.  Sounds far fetched but great training for the Brit security services and money was no object.

So I wouldn't go with the informer thing all the time. It's an easy way out. Brits were clever. Of course they had informers at every level. 

People are humans and in every conflict/war, there will be informers.  Just human nature.

I don't imagine volunteers would have been discussing operations in their own homes for precisely the above reason (no doubting it's true though).

The operation that night was quite brazen, fairly reckless and perhaps a tad predictable.

[AustinPowers]

In general, I think the easy thing is to point to informers but not always the case I'd say.

Brits were great at spying on people and using listening devices.

Was listening to a podcast recently with an ex-soldier and he was saying (whether you believe him or not is another story) is a 'key player' would have got a letter saying they won a family holiday, via a newspaper and they'd be away or a night. 

In meantime, security lads would break in and bug the house. He said they'd take photos of rooms etc. and everything would be exactly where it was when they first entered.  Sounds far fetched but great training for the Brit security services and money was no object.

So I wouldn't go with the informer thing all the time. It's an easy way out. Brits were clever. Of course they had informers at every level. 

People are humans and in every conflict/war, there will be informers.  Just human nature.

I don't imagine volunteers would have been discussing operations in their own homes for precisely the above reason (no doubting it's true though).

The operation that night was quite brazen, fairly reckless and perhaps a tad predictable.

It was the car park thing that didn't make sense. Even if the SAS not been there waiting , odds are  the security forces  would have followed the  lorry to there.  I mean, it wasn't difficult to spot

From the footage back then , the car park was wide open. No cover. The forces could have pulled up  nearby in most directions and fired  at them, or surrounded them at least. Had that happened,  where would they have even run to? 

Didn't make sense to me. Very badly thought out  operation

[general_lee]

Yeah I agree, very poorly thought out. Plus driving a lorry as well with hardware they didn't need attached. Some of those attacks on police stations were as much for propaganda as anything else.

[Milltown Row2]

The wasted life to be no further on 30 odd years later...

No further on?

Been stopped by the British Army recently have you? Or the RUC?

Yeah all those deaths were worth not getting stopped...

Funny enough was stopped last year when there was a dissident threats.

And we are no further on

[Snapchap]

The wasted life to be no further on 30 odd years later...

No further on?

Been stopped by the British Army recently have you? Or the RUC?

Yeah all those deaths were worth not getting stopped...

Funny enough was stopped last year when there was a dissident threats.

And we are no further on

Did they dish out any sectarian harassment, humiliate you, threaten you, abuse or assault you? Did armed British soldiers arrive from a nearby barracks? Were the UDR there? Reckon they took your details and passed them onto loyalist paramilitaries?

Yeah you must be right then. Nothing has changed in the last 30 odd years.

[Milltown Row2]

The wasted life to be no further on 30 odd years later...

No further on?

Been stopped by the British Army recently have you? Or the RUC?

Yeah all those deaths were worth not getting stopped...

Funny enough was stopped last year when there was a dissident threats.

And we are no further on

Did they dish out any sectarian harassment, humiliate you, threaten you, abuse or assault you? Did armed British soldiers arrive from a nearby barracks? Were the UDR there? Reckon they took your details and passed them onto loyalist paramilitaries?

Yeah you must be right then. Nothing has changed in the last 30 odd years.

Who knows? Wouldn't have too much on me in fairness

But what I do know is SF sit in local government with the DUP now, and maybe, just maybe had we looked at doing that in the late 60's we'd have family friends work colleagues alive today.

Be rest assured though, those deaths didn't bring about being stopped by the peelers, it was plain old politics. So again wasted lives. There won't be, unfortunately, a UI in our lifetime