Donegal v Dublin semi final 28-8-11

[Jinxy]

The rules are the major problem here.

If the rules treat every contact the same, and don't allow the referee to differentiate between the purpose, aggression, context (provocation involved) and outcome of the contact, then it's basically an open door for cheats to exploit.

Players getting involved in macho argy bargy after a debatable free, or pumping chests when play stops after highly charged piece of action, is as much a part of the game as full length blocks and square on shoulder charges. It's called passion. The rules (or the current intepretation of them) have though moved the advantage towards the snidey, calculating cheats who provoke a reaction, then turn it into an international incident.

I've an old school take on these minor encounters that happen in every game of football. If you decide to get involved in one of these acts of manliness, you must behave like a man, and you should have no recourse if you are violently removed from it.

I'm not advocating violence by the way. I'm advocating that referees shouldn't arbitrate on minor squabbles between willing combatants. This simple change of tack would encourage the cheats and lowlifes away from turning games into farces.

You might see stuff like what went on in the said incident yesterday as stuff of macho, masculine passion - I would say it's quite the opposite actually, in that the players who start these "handbags" and those that then try to get involved once it's started are anything but manily. The problem is that such players are already looking for a cover to save face before they even get involved. The type of lad who likes to boast of "look at ME I've got BIG BALLS!!!" pretty much like the type of w**ker who's in a group of his mates for a night out, gets them to pick on one or two strangers minding their own business then tries to get a row started later in the night and just on the brink of it, goes into "hold me back boys" mode - because if he actually got into a real fight, one on one with someone that can take care of themselves, no backup around them of six other lads of his age wearing the same colour of shirts with the same w**ker attitudes, he would literally shit himself and start crying for his mammy. You see this type of handbags in hurling a lot less than you do in football, and even less in ladies football. In fact in the latter if something does flare up, it's normally one against one and those two women will show more testosterone in their scrap than over 99% of all the men involved in a "handbag" incident; and if it does turn into a multiple player scrap, it's pretty much game abandoned.

The thing that links ladies football and hurling here is that the players' aggressions are channelled much more into the actual playing of the game rather than wastefully getting involved in handbags. There isn't much scope for physical outlets within ladies football because of the rules though that doesn't stop players and teams being physically imposing, while in hurling they have more of the right attitude of using their physicality within the rules, mainly in good shoulder to shoulder charges with the intent of getting the better of their opponent in a way that actually looks masculine. The problem is that most footballers are reluctant to attempt a good hard shoulder challenge on an opponent with the ball not because they feel they will not win such a challenge, pick themselves up and go again, but rather that they fear that they'll end up on their arse and have people laughing at them. So they save face and instead put their aggression into something that isn't productive.

If in these "handbag" incidents some players were actually showing a bit of aggression, they would at least try and approach face to face and shove their opponent with enough force to put their arse on the ground, not try and feel what type of material the opposition's jerseys are made of or blind siding your opponent with a shoulder charge into the back. That's not a sign of manliness or passion, that's a sign of cowardice.

They won't try and shoulder an opponent because they will more than likely be penalised for it.
There is an unspoken understanding in hurling that the refs swallow their whistles for the greater good of the game.

[squire_in_navy_slacks]

Watched the recording there..............jesus deegan was squirming when the linesman approached him about the handbags, he really didnt want to make that call

Hopefully theres a quick answer to this red card fuss

[North Longford]

Funny thing is when I saw Hickey approaching Deegan I said to the missus this fella is a dire ref he's liable to tell him anything and low and behold we get the outcome we did.
And the question was just being smart jinxy. point being surely the 2 wrongs are worse indeed then the one right?

[Mid Down Gael]

He pushed Boyle in the neck having had 3 Donegal players come at him after he won the free. Boyle dives to the ground holding his face. Ref who was beside incident takes direction from linesan 20 yds away to send him off. Youd' be happy with that if it were M*ath player would you?

Connolly raised his hands so is in trouble going by letter of the law. If there's any 'justice' he will not miss an AIF for that.

Have you even looked at the incident? There is a clear "push / strike / punch" to the face.

Harmless admittedly but its a red card offence.

Good job they dont hand out reds around Cullyhanna for what Diarmaid done. Wouldnt be too many that would finish games.

[Jinxy]

If you time it even slightly wrong you'll get a yellow.
Time it badly wrong and you'll get a red.
So why would you do it?
This is the culmination of years of media hysteria.
The game was too violent and out of control we were told, so now it has been emasculated.
Hurling hasn't been yet, but that's largely because the refs are told to stand back and let the lads get stuck in.

[Orangemac]

Donegal didnt lose anything. They had no conviction and no plan B. Mc Guinness never believed they could win the game and that was proven by leaving one man up front when they were behind.

I cant imagine there are no Donegal players today feeling had they pushed up in the last 5 minutes they could have nicked it. But they didnt because their coaching staff went for a damage limitation approach.

Mc Guinness is preaching a full court press today "Well donegal in the past would have played beautiful football and lost".

Newsflash Jim - you played rancid football and lost.

You'll notice the last word in the above 2 sentences is the same.

Cest la vie.

Donegal played 14 games this year and lost 2 ( 1 of which was meaningless) ,won 2 major trophies and came within a kick of reaching the AI final with practically the same players that lay down v Armagh last year so you can't argue his tactics aren't effective.

Game was there for the taking a few times for Donegal yesterday but didn't have enough belief or quality when they did go forward. 1 break just after the sending off when they had men over and couldn't get the ball out to them comes to mind.

Donegal on Sunday would remind you of Inter under Mourinho.Poor to watch but effective with Murphy being sacrificed the way Eto was.

[muppet]

If you time it even slightly wrong you'll get a yellow.
Time it badly wrong and you'll get a red.
So why would you do it?
This is the culmination of years of media hysteria.
The game was too violent and out of control we were told, so now it has been emasculated.
Hurling hasn't been yet, but that's largely because the refs are told to stand back and let the lads get stuck in.

Players will always play a game in its own context. Some might step way out of that context and pay the price and they will deserve it. The context of this game was established long before this particular incident. By modern football standard this was already a hopelessly cynical contest.

Connolly's action was naive. Not for raising his hands though, his sin was matched immediately before and after his own without sanction. Nope, his naivety was in not diving in agony in the first instance. He may well be severely punished for that.

We never learn.

[lynchbhoy]

Muppet, do you think Sundays game was more cynical than the previous weeks match between Kerry and Mayo?
I dont - honestly. There was more blatent cynicism in that first 25 minutes than the entire Dublin and Donegal contingent could muster in 70 mins!
IMO of course, but from what I witnessed on Sunday, neither Dublin or Donegal resorted to the same level of holding or checking opponents runs that both Kerry and Mayo enacted...

the difference was that Donegal killed the game as a spectacle for the high scoring neutrals with their tactics. Its horrible to watch for most , but not illegal or 'cynical' in the current sense of the word with regard to football this season.

[HiMucker]

I've an old school take on these minor encounters that happen in every game of football. If you decide to get involved in one of these acts of manliness, you must behave like a man, and you should have no recourse if you are violently removed from it.

The problem is that most footballers are reluctant to attempt a good hard shoulder challenge on an opponent with the ball not because they feel they will not win such a challenge, pick themselves up and go again, but rather that they fear that they'll end up on their arse and have people laughing at them. So they save face and instead put their aggression into something that isn't productive.

I dont think this is the reason players dont shoulder tackle as often now .  Reason is if you dont put the man is arse it is waste of time and effort and the attcking team with the ball suddenly have man over as you are no where to be seen after you tried to empty some boy and he has bounced of you and accelerated towards goal.  There is times for it and when it works it is very effective, but  i have seen at least two examples in hurling and football this year were relatively small men have taken big hits and bounced of their men and scored a goal.  It is frustrating when players in your own team take the lazy way out and go for the big hit instead of standing the man up in the tackle.  Like everything else in footaball, it is about decision making and doing the right things at the right time.

[Drummerboy]

Philly McMahon performed a perfect shoulder to a Donegal forward, knocking him over the line but the ref amazingly gave a free in. To make it worse the ball was put over the bar from the free.

[brokencrossbar1]

Philly McMahon performed a perfect shoulder to a Donegal forward, knocking him over the line but the ref amazingly gave a free in. To make it worse the ball was put over the bar from the free.

Wasn't a perfect shoulder was more into his back than shoulder to shoulder but it wasn't too far off. The reality is that unless your timing is perfect the shoulder charge is not a great way to tackle as it is too easily avoided and the player making the shoulder is generally cut out of the game at a crucial time because if this. It may get a big roar from the crowd if it works but more often than not the player simply ends up looking silly. 

[The Hill is Blue]

Will any appeal by Connolly get support from the Donegal football team management? After all, Donegal were at the wrong end of a red-card decision against Murphy earlier in the summer.

In fairness, I saw only sympathy for Connolly from Donegal posters on this forum. Fair dues lads.   

[tonto1888]

With regards to the red card, which i thought should have been a yellow. I can see why it was a red though as he does make, albeit very light contact, with the lads chin. Reminds me a bit of marsden's redcard in 03 final.

[tonto1888]

I'd like to see the rules amended so that diving is a red card offence.

It's already a yellow card offence, but I don't think I've ever seen that applied, so what chance is there that refs would wave the red cad if that was the penalty? One of the biggest problems in the game, that remains unrecognised, never mind addressed, is the refusal of referees to apply the rules as written.

a la andy mallon against bradley this year

[OverThePostsAWide]

Simple things like this need to be cleaned up -
1 - Deliberately staying within the 13 yards when frees are given should lead the ball being moved 35/40 yards forward rather than 13 and a yellow card.
2 - Refusing to give the ball back when frees are given should have the same result as above.
3 - Anyone diving like Boyle did feigning an injury when wasn't touched in the face should get a season's ban.
4 - Anyone claiming an elbow or shouting for people to be sent off and coming on the pitch from the sideline should get a 3 year ban.
5 - Deliberate tripping of people going through on goal should be a red card offence.

the rules already cater for points 1 & 2 - and indeed the ref was incorrect when he brought the ball up a second time for Dublin when they didnt get out of the way quickly enough. The penalty there is a yellow card.
The points 3, 4 &5 are part of the debate we had this last few weeks on cynical fouling etc and the refs not applying the proper laws of the game in the actual match.

I disagree Lynchboy. The penalty for not retreating 13m from a free kick (or preventing a free kick from being taken) is a "Free kick 13m more advantageous than place of original kick". If a further similar offense occurs before the kick is taken then the free kick should be moved forward a further 13m as the "place of original kick" refers to the place of the free kick when the offense occurs. And so on up to the opponents' 13m line. A yellow card could only be appropriate if the same player persistantly "fouled" the free kick.

Regarding the second part of point 4, I have heard rumours that a certain player/manager while unlikely to get 3 yrs, might have to miss St Gall's run in the Ulster Club Championship...