Armagh Vs Derry

[full back]

Didnt hear that, but heard a rumour that Plunkett & Mr Lynch are being recalled to add a bit of balls to your squad-any truth in it?

[Over the Bar]

When the horses are put out to graze we let them stay there.   Is it right that Joe has scrapped the oranges at half-time in favour of Complan?

[berfaharps]

Well lads, after a bit of an absence (Just like marsden) I have returned... Very disappointing performance on sunday, too many fellas not up to the mark, and too many not going in where it hurts or putting in the effort. Paul Grimleys absence is starting to tell, he was never given the due credit for the teams performances over the last 5 years.. sure look at the improvement in cavan!!

The major problem still exists, the half forward line needs to be sorted, it has been a problem for 7-8 years now. Toal needs to be playing regularly there, also i'd bring marsden out as well, charlie vernon needs to go into the half back line. As regards the croos lads, good luck to them on saturday, i'll be there cheering them on, aside from the kernans, bellew & oisin, does anyone else reckon there should be a few more starters in the county side form the panel

[Over the Bar]

Heading down Saturday myself.  Is there an opener and if so who's up?

[lynchbhoy]

Loughran is back on the panel and will soon be available again. he's also in good nick so should be pushing hard. it's unfair to judge the application or commitment of any player who is injured and unable to make his own statement on the field.
Granted morale is very low at the moment for a number of off field reasons but joe has a good habit of picking things up for the championship. marsden's return is good and there are moves afoot to get the best possible panel together.
form is temporary

I take issue with that 'form is temporary' load of rubbish statement

you pick players on form
I couldnt give a monkeys uncle about how much 'class' the play may have (or had previously) you pick players and teams on merit and form.
I have been hearing that stupid phrase a lot recently - mostly in rugby related circles and it grates on my nerves.

I also think that Philly loughran is a player with huge potential. I dont think he has ever fully reached it with Armagh. A job for psycho-analyst mcnulty I'd say.
The guy has all the raw materials - physique, athleticism, skill, good fielder and at times the right drive and toughness.
He needs confidence and someone to get the best out of him - otherwise he may as well be selling hot dogs in croker.

I like him as a footballer, and I think Armagh are mental if they dont address this properly.

but if they dont, then form - however temporary, dictates that he wont get a place on the bench let alone the side.

[berfaharps]

Football: Crossmaglen Rangers (Armagh) v Dr Crokes (Kerry), 2.0
Hurling: Ballyhale Shamrocks (Kilkenny) v Loughrea (Galway), 3.40

[Uladh]

While i agree that its march and there is no sense in panicing, surely standards must be higher whatever time of year it is.

march or not, missing players or not, there is no fight, aggression or quality to armagh's football at the minute and that has to be a serious worry. How a team perform in these departments are usually on the back of management, but as joe says every week irately in the paper its not his fault. only francie and aaron are going to definately come into the starting team from the cross lads given francie's ongoing injury problem. it's presumed at this stage that oisin will spend the year as an impact sub ala canavan.

The effect of last years fall out is staring us in the face. given that Grimley took care of every aspect of football training, he influenced hugely the work done during the week and therefore the appetite and intentions carried into the games at the weekend. The most important aspect to his loss is the tempo of play he was able to assert on the team. even on armagh's worst days previously, they ran and tackled til they dropped. i haven't seen any evidence of that attitude this year yet... apart from mcgeeney's 15 minute cameo on sunday.

experimentation is fine and dandy, but experiment realistically. forker for example was a failed experiment in the mckenna cup, for this year anyway. mcclelland has consistently proved himself short at senior county level this year and to be hauled off after 20 mins on sunday is not going to help his development. Charlie vernan is not and never will be a forward in the conventional notion and on sunday looked a poor imitation of the powerful & confident footballer of the previous weekend in another team's colours. mccreesh is a game lad but a very limited footballer. persistently reinforcing this in his own mind by exposing him at this stage to that level of football will hinder any possibility of him developing.

If you want to experiment, you put players in who you know have the quality to make an impact. armagh have 16/17 players currently able for championship football in some form or another, you need to experiment to see if those with the promise of breaking into that can perform with good footballers around them.

management have to make reasonable assessments of who can make an impact instead of throwing in wholehearted lads as some sort of misguided reward.

Lavery has produced some fantastic performances against the best midfielders in the county for his club and the county u21 team. put him in for 4/5 games in the league alongside a steady partner to see if he can settle in and produce his best consistently. don't play him at centre forwrd where he will never play for armagh in the championship in a month of sundays.
Dyas consistently produced extraordinary quality from wing back for his club over the last two seasons. put him into a solid half back line over 4/5 games and see if he can settle in and find confidence at that level. a player of his talents will produce super football when he becomes confident in his surroundings. this is exactly the approach that brought ak into the team.
Toal obviously has that rare commodity of being to able to find the posts consistently but he 2 years of looking at him has told us that he doesn't have the workrate for the half forward line. he doesn't show for the ball consistently and doesn't put in the hard yards to get into shooting positions often enough to be making full use of his talent. with oisin and clarke missing, play him alongside stevie for 4/5 games to see if they can play together and score heavily enough.
Toner has shown some fantastic potential for the county underage teams and was an absolute stand out in his final year at county minors. he was a revelation at midfield in the mckenna cup, even though he is probably as natural a full back as i've seen in this county since gareth o'neill. we need a full back in the short and long term and with francie unavailable, he should have gotten 4/5 games between enda and andy to see if he can step up this soon.
Vernan is a cracking athlete, who is virtually unstoppable when he bursts onto a ball. at this stage his defensive frailties would rule him out of playing in defence but he is too big of a talent to ignore. he should be started at wing forward to augment the defence as dooher does. dropping deep and coming late onto the ball he would cause mayhem.
Michael o'rourke is another lad with sound potential. he was fantastic as captain of the county u21s last year, scoring heavily from play as the loose forward in front of the front 2... as oisin played in the championship last year. with oisin on club duty, why hasn't he been playing in that exact same role for 4/5 games?

instead we're looking at lads like mcclelland, mccreesh, donaghy, keenan and forker who will not play championship football for armagh this summer unless there's an alien invasion.
above are the 6 real talents in the county who can realistically make an impact on the championship team this summer either coming on or if they bed in well, maybe even start. if management are realistic about unearthing talent, that is how it should be achieved.

The team that should have started all 4 league games so far barring injury is

mckinny
enda
toner
andy
dyas
McGeeney/jp
McKeever
mcgrane
lavery
vernan
mckeever
o'rourke
toal
mcdonnell
o'rourke

The other decent sorts should be in the squad certainly but there to earn a place on the championship panel if they can. if injuroes present them with an opportunity along the way then well and good.

This concept of giving everyone on the squad a game and a half is a total nonsense.
identify the best talent, irrespective of who they are and where they play, and develop them.
As these 5/6 players bed in they will become huge assets to the squad and 1or2 may force their way onto the team. any panel which inatkes more than 1o2 onto a championship team and more than 4or5 onto a squad annually is funadamentally weak to begin with.

[gander]

Agree with most of that there except for Keenan, I thought he's been playing alright, one of the few players to come out of sunday with any degree of credit.  Wouldn't have paddy McKeever in there either, hasn't played well in donkeys.  I'd maybe put Toal back into the HF line and tri Swift in full forward.

[Armagh Exile]

Uladh,
What about young Moriarity in the full-back line.  He has done nothing wrong so far and has been one of our better defenders.

[Uladh]

I'd consider moriarty a sold enough citezen but would remain to be convinced he can make the next step up. the absolute roastings he took in the sigerson semi final and final will linger and i can't see him playing in the championship this summer. he could be a slow burner though.

[Armamike]

You make a lot of sense Uladh.  There's a lack of effort and organisation about the team at the moment that doesn't augur well. There is a lot of improvement needed.  Players don't seem to be played in positions that play to their strengths. I would like to see Lavery kept at midfield, with Toal as a corner forward, Vernon as a half forward dropping back and Swift tried at full forward. Swift did fine at FF last year in a few league games but got absolutely no support. IMO neither he nor Vernon are anywhere near being midfielders.  O'Rourke and Toal have plenty of football in them, it's a matter of getting the best out of them. McGeeney has to come back to CHB. I don't see anyone else capable of playing this position at the moment. The two lines IMO at the moment needing major rethinking are the half backs and half forwards. The half forwards got caught in no man's land against Derry - neither defended from the front nor provided any support going forward.

[tackle]

There is alot of talk of who joe is going to bring in from cross and there will be more after sat.  I reckon hell take his 4 sons, tony Mc Entee, Bellew, Hearty, oisin, Mc Kenna and Hanratty.  Thats ten.  Tony and Paul are less than certainties but i wld say theyll be drafted in.  Who will be dropped from the panel to make way?  I reckon P Forker, G Mc Creesh and B Donaghy will go.  All who have had very limited opportunities, especially Mc Creesh.  What does others think about this?  By the way, Has S Forker jumped in front of Michael O Rourke in the pecking order dor the forward line?  He came on last sun and Michael was not used.  Any ideas on that one?

[Imposerous]

Uladh

I agree with what you are saying, and would only contest your team selection.  You have previously rubbished my claims for David McKenna to be given a run out, but I still contend that he will be a viable midfield option, if not this year then next.  Johnny Hanratty too should have a chance to stake a claim for the FF postion before the end of the League, especially as Clarke is almost certainly not going to play this season and those who have been tried have been found wanting.  As has been mentioned he has plenty of pace, good hands and can take a score.  Mackin is not the answer.  The Galway game showed Keenan is not a ball winning target man (a system Joe seems determined to persist with), however, when allowed to roam and find space he has no lack of skill and his 3 points from play will help his confidence.
Gareth Swift won most of the ball played into him during the McKenna cup and League games last year but no supporting players meant he often was forced into hopeful punts.  However, this year he hasn't looked to be in form and hasn't the presence for the midfield role.
Any games I have seen young Vernon in he has exuded confidence.  However, on Sunday he looked like a little boy lost.  He was clearly under heavy instruction and it hindered his natural instincts for the game.  At times he didn't know whether to go to the man and tackle, chase back, or move forward.  Played totally out of position.
Tony McClelland is a great player.  Unfortunately he lacks pace and at this level that is an unforgivable flaw.
Michael O'Rourke should be persisted with.  He had an excellent Sigerson final and turned in several top performances in the U-21s last year, and has loads of potential.
However, Martin is not of the same standard. I have never seen a player divide opinion as he does.  He is a very good club footballer, but if he is one of the top six forwards in the county then he has yet to convince many.  I have never doubted his work rate, except for the Kildare game this year, when he turned in the worst individual performance in an Armagh jersey since Paul McCormack against Meath last year.  He wins some ball, is very strong and is totally committed, but lacks finesse and vision.  His passing is poor and rarely scores.  Unfortunately, Cathal is still the daddy of them all.  How we could do with someone of his class now.  Although why Aiden is isn't on this squad is baffling.  Was there a row with Joe?
I disagree with your comment on Peadar Toal's work rate.  I asked about this player at the beginning of the year and have tracked him in games.  He works extremely hard and is often found in the backline having chased back the length of the field.  Then he is often caught out of position when we counter.  I think you are spot on in that he should be played in the ff line, where he can execute that swivel and getting away a quick shot which he seems so good at.  What he could do however, is seek space when Armagh are attacking, but on several runs I've seen him make he has been overlooked as there seems to be this pervading thought to find McDonnell.  I think Toal could also be tried out at CHF, he seems strong on the ball and can spray quite accurate passes (in this team that is a premium).
The team I'd like to have seen)

mckinney
enda
toner
andy
Donnelly/Dyas
Vernon
McKeever
mcgrane
lavery
McKeever
Toal
Keenan
McDonnell
Swift
Michael O'Rourke

[pintsofguinness]

Smokin Joe

Pints, it is obvious from Orchard Warrior's previous posts that he has the inside word on the Armagh set up.
Why are you so forward in disregarding his post?

Because I remember on the old board he made an out of the blue attack on Jarlath Burns, claiming he cost us an All Ireland by lining out.  Now I know I'm a little on the clannish side, but he's obviously a tit!

BC

I have no doubt that what Joe said in the papers was said to the players faces.  He no doubt was asked questions and answered them honestly.  It is not the way I would conduct manangement if I was there but perhaps there is method in his thinking.

Whether he said it to the player's faces or not is irrelevant.  It hardly helped team spirit to have joe running to the paper to wash his hands of them.  Even you can't defend that one. 

By the way, Has S Forker jumped in front of Michael O Rourke in the pecking order dor the forward line?  He came on last sun and Michael was not used.  Any ideas on that one?

He's got some naked pictures of joe? It's the only reason I can think of. 

Uladh you make some good points, I think Joe is demonstrating how not to build a team.

[Uladh]

There are quite a few things there i couldn't agree with at all at all.

McKenna and Hanratty have proven themselves capable lads when they have been on the cross team this year. at this stage they both seem to have nailed on their starting spots but that certainly wasn't the case earlier in the championship. both are tidy footballers and hanratty in particular seems like he could develop into a very good player. but how anyone can make a case for an 18 year old lad who has just broken onto his club senior team to be on the armagh squad immediately is beyond me. Hanratty has the potential to make it, no doubt but it won't be this year. there are players who have done very well for the county u21s (a grade of football above the club championship) who aren't ready for senior county football yet. people get carried away watching club football in that they think they are watching county football but there are so many examples of players catapulted into county colours from it who aren't even close. i understand both are on the county u21 squad directly but give both those lads a bit of time and see can they get a place on the team and perform at that level.

I thought Swift was very hard done by last year. he had excelled at full forward during the McKenna Cup but suffered from Armagh's unwillingness to kick the ball into him and stevie. he was thrown to the mifield lions against meath, where he hadn't been playing regularly and despatched after 15 minutes. he wasn't heard of all year after. it seems that his shocking form now is a hangover from that. its another example of joe's total inability to man manage and swift would be better off concentrating on club football to rediscover his form in my opinion. His form has been terrible though given his undoubted ability.

Noone i know who has a decent grasp of the game of football underestimates marty o'rourke's importantness to the team. there are very good football men who would tell you that his ball winning and work rate cannot be done without if armagh are to achieve anything this year. there is also the opinion, held mainly on the hoganstand and orchardcounty websites and by those who only see the end product, that he doesn't score enough and create enough scores. these are the same people who think that every team still plays with 6 forwards up in 6 set positions. these people also think that marty plays in the forwrd line!

We could debate all day and night about paedar toal. he has sublime ability at times but just doesn't have the work rate to put himself in a position to use it. take someone like ross munnelly, who hasn't a fraction of toal's talent, puts imself in postion to score roughly 5 scores a game from play and then kick maybe the same amount of wides. those are the times when he's not tied up making runs cross field to link up the play so others can get the shot. even the year the u21s won the all ireland, when his work rate was as good as i've seen it, it wasn't good enough for a county half forward. surely even harps men concede that he'd be the finished article if he could add that to his game? as i said before, he has tons of scoring ability and maybe playing inside would makke better use of that.